I grew up in the RCC. Remember. The mind can only take so much of RCC indoctrination and propaganda. I still can recite a good part of the mass in Latin. I much prefer to hear what people have to say for themselves.
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MacArthur's Ignorant Misrepresentation of Catholic Teaching
- Thread starter lori4dogs
- Start date
I just noticed I hadn't answered you question about Catholic doctrine. I began taking an interest in the Catholic Church years ago only after discovering the Baptist Board. Many very knowledgeable Catholics debated on a variety of Catholic doctrines. At that time I was very anti-Catholic and thought that if they were on this board long enough they might 'come to know Jesus as Lord and Savior'. The more I read the more compelling and convincing their positions became. I eventually started reading scholars like Scott Hahn, Steve Wood, Karl Keating, Patrick Madrid, Carl Olsen, etc.
At the same time, here on the board, other Baptists began to question their long held positions. I know some of them today, like myself, are Catholics (at least one is Orthodox). I know of one that left his Baptist church to go back to his Lutheran church because he became convinced of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Eventually tolerance of Catholics on the board was over and as a result you have just a couple of us that were 'grandfathered' in. I think it's a shame. There are many, many much more knowledgeable Catholics than I.
I still have a LOT to learn about the Catholic Church. I have no doubt that Jesus is Lord in the Catholic Church and that you will be seeing a lot of us in glory.
I continue to learn much on this board.
Thanks for asking.
Hello lori4dogs,
Fair enough.
Another question, if thats okay.
Now that you follow Catholic doctrine, how, in your estimation, do most Catholics believe they are saved?
God bless.
Fair enough.
Another question, if thats okay.
Now that you follow Catholic doctrine, how, in your estimation, do most Catholics believe they are saved?
God bless.
Yes by the grace of God I am! I am perfect In Jesus, and daily being conformed to His image.
LORI, I was a confirmed catholic [st philip and james church]
Now ex-cath, as the church has departed from scripture many times over.
You spoke of sufficency, but that is not the issue. The issue is it is a
perfect once for all time sacrifice.
Perfect as in complete, nothing and no work can be aded to it. No suffering, fasting, rosaries, scapulars, novennas , masses, nothing can be added to the
perfect work of our Lord Jesus Christ.:thumbsup:
I am for catholics, yet against the false roman teaching.
I would say that most Catholics would say their salvation is through Jesus Christ. In my first class to prepare me to become a Catholic the cathechist wrote Acts 4:11-12 on the blackboard in this manner:
He (Jesus) is "the stone rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone." There is no salvation through anyone else, nor is there any other name under heaven given to the human race by which we are to be saved.
We do believe you need to 'get wet' along with repentance and faith in Christ.
He (Jesus) is "the stone rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone." There is no salvation through anyone else, nor is there any other name under heaven given to the human race by which we are to be saved.
We do believe you need to 'get wet' along with repentance and faith in Christ.
There are a lot of confirmed Catholics that don't know beans about what the Church actually teaches. Based on how you have worded your post, I suspect you haven't read any Catholic apologists. Ever read anything by Scott Hahn or Carl Keating or just the 'other sides' view?
Don't you think there is something wrong with your advice?
People who grow up under the teaching of their own priest, being taught in their own church, having an understanding of their own faith, and testifying to that fact doesn't seem good enough for people like yourself anymore.
You say:
"I suspect you haven't read any Catholic apologists. Ever read anything by Scott Hahn or Carl Keating"
I don't have to read the work of an apologist to know what I believe about my faith (whether it be Catholic or Baptist). And if that is what you are recommending to others then it is a blight or put down on the RCC that you don't feel that the priests are qualified or competent at teaching their own congregation their faith. They fail--almost every time. They come here and you feel that you must refer them to a Scott Hahn or a Carl Keating, because they have been cheated out of their faith by a simple priest who doesn't know zip about his own faith. This is how you come across.
Not all Catholics have been taught well. Obviously the poster didn't have a good understanding of the faith if they thought they 'had to do rosaries, novenas, etc. and that these are 'added' to obtain salvation. That is pure baloney.
We actually had a significant number of Baptists and other ex-Protestants enter our Catholic parish this year. I sat in on a number of classes that they were participating in. Most knew their Baptist doctrines very well but changed their minds in light of good Catholic teaching.
BTW, not many priests are teaching catechism (if any) or didn't you know that?
We actually had a significant number of Baptists and other ex-Protestants enter our Catholic parish this year. I sat in on a number of classes that they were participating in. Most knew their Baptist doctrines very well but changed their minds in light of good Catholic teaching.
BTW, not many priests are teaching catechism (if any) or didn't you know that?
Lori,
You have not responded to the verses about the perfection of the atonement.
I suspect you have not read the catholic documents on what they base their teaching on.
Many of your "current" catholic apologists,have learned some things in baptist,and protestant denominations and carry that back to programs like catholic answers.on catholic family radio.
They did not learn as the should have and their presentations do not stand up to scriptural cross examination.
I have heard and read scott hahn, patrick madrid, etc.
Lori.... just look around you when you go to work, or shopping.
Who is it that is taking God's name in vain publickly,speaking and behaving ungodly?
8 times out of ten, it is a RC who thinks they are okay, and thinks God is not going to judge them. look at the fruit of the false teaching and superstiton of rome.
I have been to catholic bible studies,where the level of scriptural knowledge was almost non-existent.
I have spoken with catholic "priests' who where lacking a solid scriptural base to even dialogue about it!
You said;
When you unscripturally confess sins to an unscriptural "priest" what does he instruct you do do....rosaries,hail mary's our fathers, for what purpose??? why are these works to be done?
What is as you say
You have not responded to the verses about the perfection of the atonement.
I suspect you have not read the catholic documents on what they base their teaching on.
Many of your "current" catholic apologists,have learned some things in baptist,and protestant denominations and carry that back to programs like catholic answers.on catholic family radio.
They did not learn as the should have and their presentations do not stand up to scriptural cross examination.
I have heard and read scott hahn, patrick madrid, etc.
Lori.... just look around you when you go to work, or shopping.
Who is it that is taking God's name in vain publickly,speaking and behaving ungodly?
8 times out of ten, it is a RC who thinks they are okay, and thinks God is not going to judge them. look at the fruit of the false teaching and superstiton of rome.
I have been to catholic bible studies,where the level of scriptural knowledge was almost non-existent.
I have spoken with catholic "priests' who where lacking a solid scriptural base to even dialogue about it!
You said;
When you unscripturally confess sins to an unscriptural "priest" what does he instruct you do do....rosaries,hail mary's our fathers, for what purpose??? why are these works to be done?
What is as you say
is that the church itself is at it's core works based salvation, contrary to scripture.
The 'presbyters' of the New Testament are the 'priests' of the Catholic Church. Have you read the Early Church Fathers? Becomes obvious that confession is by no means unscriptural.
As far as your observations of Catholics. I have made the same of many Baptists and other Protestants. No Sunday Christians in your church? I know many, many committed Catholic Christians.
No where can you show me a Catholic document that supports 'salvation earned' or works/righteousness.
I haven't responded to your assertion that Catholics don't believe in the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice on the cross because it isn't true. BTW, you are off-topic. The OP is about Protestants like MacArthur making false accusations about the Catholic Church. Have your looked at the link in the OP?
As far as your observations of Catholics. I have made the same of many Baptists and other Protestants. No Sunday Christians in your church? I know many, many committed Catholic Christians.
No where can you show me a Catholic document that supports 'salvation earned' or works/righteousness.
I haven't responded to your assertion that Catholics don't believe in the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice on the cross because it isn't true. BTW, you are off-topic. The OP is about Protestants like MacArthur making false accusations about the Catholic Church. Have your looked at the link in the OP?
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Thinkingstuff
Active Member
You can't have. Because if Iconoclast has witnessed 8 of 10 people who were using the lord's name in vein were catholics then that only leave 2 out of 10 protestants. So you couldn't make the same observation. And you must know that verses like "Those who do my father's will are my mother, brother and sisters." Or verse like from James chp 2 don't apply because those are obvioulsy works based verses . So I think you're in trouble here Lori.
thomas15
Well-Known Member
Lori,
Would you be kind enough to tell me what your screen name on catholic answers (dot) com is? I want to see where you (as a former Baptist) correct Catholic misunderstandings of Baptist beliefs.
I don't post on Catholic Answers. My spouse assures me that I spend 'entirely too much time' on this board. :smilewinkgrin: However, if I did and Catholics misrepresented what Baptists believe I would do my best to correct them. Baptists and other Protestants are not banned-unless they are rude-from that board and I would encourage you to join in the discussions if you have the time.
thomas15
Well-Known Member
It would be a full time job trying to correct catholics who mis-represent Baptist there. They have next to no time or interrest in being fair with protestants. If you tied to correct them as you say, you would be in short order flammed.
I think you might try the following message board. I think it's a lot easier to navigate and the folks there seem tolerant of non-Catholic views. I noticed an issue with 'sola scriptura' that a Baptist or other Protestant might want to chime in for the sake of accuracy.
http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/topic/5051/t/Why-believe-the-Bible.html
Very interesting thread on 'Why believe the Bible'
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Actually,
I worked for 16 years in a job that had 460 employees. Over time I worked both day and night shifts. I spoke to each and every person on the job.I knew each person, I asked about their faith, or lack of faith. I live in a predominatley RC area.
If anything my 8 out of ten was somewhat charitable. If you are being honest you know what I have stated is true.
My own relatives have no real clue what the RC church teaches, much less the actual bible teachings.
Lori, and other catholics like her have become acquainted with the bible to some extent.That is a good thing. I would prefer that 8 out of 10 catholics were students of the bible and would be in a position to answer for their belief system.
The only believers on that job were other Rc who read their bible and God saved them. there was also one baptist, and two charasmatics.
There were three catholics who did attempt to give an answer for their beliefs,and we had good interaction together.
For work now I get to travel in the 48 states,and am in Tennesee/Nc now.
Not many catholics here.
I do pay attention to the spiritual atmosphere each day. While not a gallup poll, after awhile it is pretty accurate.
There is a seperate word for priests that is not used for NT.ministers.
Jesus alone is our High Priest. All believers are priests and kings In Jesus.
All christians are saints also. There are no special categories of saints to venerate or pray too.
The Op is somewhat vague.
The early church fathers are not authoratative.
Lori, you said this;
It is sad when any professed christian takes God's name in vain,whether by their speech or by their sinful actions. Mt 7:21 says
Lori you also said
If I did you you believe it, or make an explanation for it?
Lori, If you believe in Jesus,his person and work alone for your salvation that is great. I would ask you to try an experiment.
When you come across other Rc's and speak with them ask them if they are going to heaven and without prompting them ask what does a person need to do to get to heaven,and see what responses you get.