Note no comment made concerning "will be" versus the bogus contention "were." Just an arm wave that something elsewhere supports the Calvinist fiction. Folks, read Romans 5:19...
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Made, not Declared
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
So Jesus atonement is not effective for his children until the children are made alive with Christ by the grace of God. Is that your assertion?Topic reminder:
Some claim being made righteous by the blood of Christ is the same thing as being declared righteous or having righteousness "imputed" to us. This assertion is false theology.
When God and God alone transfers us into Christ, i.e. when we are baptized into Christ, we undergo the circumcision of Christ where our sin burden (what God holds against us due to sin) is removed. Thus the Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world, one sinner at a time.
Additionally, some claim we have not been made righteous, because we still think and do sinful things. This assertion is also false theology. Although we certainly think and do sinful things, because we have been justified, once for all our sins, past, present and future, it is just as if we had not sinned, therefore we remain righteous.
Some English translations of scripture render Titus 3:7 as including "declared righteous" but the vast majority of translations render the Greek word "dikaiOthentes" as "justified. So a Greek word has within its range of meanings "declared righteous" but according modern translations (NASB, NKJV, NET, LEB and NIV) they all render it justified at Titus 3:7.
Summary, how are we made righteous, by the blood of the Lamb.
When are we made righteous, when we are transferred into Christ.
Yet another "change the subject with endless questions" ploy.So Jesus atonement is not effective for his children until the children are made alive with Christ by the grace of God. Is that your assertion?
Did anyone use the term "Jesus atonement?" Nope
Why not say Jesus' death on the cross? Because obfuscation is the Calvinist game.
When is the reconciliation provided by Christ's death on the cross "effective" for an individual? When an individual is placed into Christ and not before.
Does that mean Christ providing the means of salvation with His death on the cross was not "effective?" Nope
On and on, the Calvinists post to hide this basic truth, we are made righteous when God alone puts us into Christ.
You never answered the question. Please answer the question rather than generally castigate those you call "calvinists." Here is the statement and question. What say you?Yet another "change the subject with endless questions" ploy.
Did anyone use the term "Jesus atonement?" Nope
Why not say Jesus' death on the cross? Because obfuscation is the Calvinist game.
When is the reconciliation provided by Christ's death on the cross "effective" for an individual? When an individual is placed into Christ and not before.
Does that mean Christ providing the means of salvation with His death on the cross was not "effective?" Nope
On and on, the Calvinists post to hide this basic truth, we are made righteous when God alone puts us into Christ.
"So Jesus atonement is not effective for his children until the children are made alive with Christ by the grace of God. Is that your assertion?"
Same old, same old...You never answered the question."
On and on, the Calvinists post to hide this basic truth, we are made righteous when God alone puts us into Christ.
Same old, same old...
On and on, the Calvinists post to hide this basic truth, we are made righteous when God alone puts us into Christ.
I take it you consider this your answer to the question, which means you do not consider Jesus atonement to be effective for his children at the cross, but instead consider it effective only after God makes a person alive with Christ.
"So Jesus atonement is not effective for his children until the children are made alive with Christ by the grace of God. Is that your assertion?"
Calvinists consistently and systemically misrepresent the biblical views of others.I take it you consider this your answer to the question, which means you do not consider Jesus atonement to be effective for his children at the cross, but instead consider it effective only after God makes a person alive with Christ.
Here is what I said, "Does that mean Christ providing the means of salvation with His death on the cross was not "effective?" Nope"
And here is how it was misrepresented, "...you do not consider Jesus Atonement to be effective..."
Same old, same old...
Returning to topic,
How are we made righteous? By means of God crediting our faith as righteous, and on that basis putting us into Christ where we undergo the circumcision of Christ.
When are we made righteous? When God puts us into Christ and we undergo the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration.
Were we made righteous when Christ died on the cross? Nope See Romans 5:19 which says will be not were...
Van, I am on topic with my inquiry. You are avoiding it. I suspect this is because you know the answer and the answer disproves your assertion.Calvinists consistently and systemically misrepresent the biblical views of others.
Here is what I said, "Does that mean Christ providing the means of salvation with His death on the cross was not "effective?" Nope"
And here is how it was misrepresented, "...you do not consider Jesus Atonement to be effective..."
Same old, same old...
Returning to topic,
How are we made righteous? By means of God crediting our faith as righteous, and on that basis putting us into Christ where we undergo the circumcision of Christ.
When are we made righteous? When God puts us into Christ and we undergo the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration.
Were we made righteous when Christ died on the cross? Nope See Romans 5:19 which says will be not were...
It is also telling how you cannot directly address me, but defer to a third person response.
Calvinists consistently and systemically misrepresent the biblical views of others.
Here is what I said, "Does that mean Christ providing the means of salvation with His death on the cross was not "effective?" Nope"
And here is how it was misrepresented, "...you do not consider Jesus Atonement to be effective..."
Same old, same old...
Returning to topic,
How are we made righteous? By means of God crediting our faith as righteous, and on that basis putting us into Christ where we undergo the circumcision of Christ.
When are we made righteous? When God puts us into Christ and we undergo the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration.
Were we made righteous when Christ died on the cross? Nope See Romans 5:19 which says will be not were...
Here is what I said, "Does that mean Christ providing the means of salvation with His death on the cross was not "effective?" Nope"
And here is how it was misrepresented, "...you do not consider Jesus Atonement to be effective..."
Same old, same old...
Returning to topic,
How are we made righteous? By means of God crediting our faith as righteous, and on that basis putting us into Christ where we undergo the circumcision of Christ.
When are we made righteous? When God puts us into Christ and we undergo the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration.
Were we made righteous when Christ died on the cross? Nope See Romans 5:19 which says will be not were...
I notice you will not address me personally and will not address my question. All readers can see your tactic.Calvinists consistently and systemically misrepresent the biblical views of others.
Here is what I said, "Does that mean Christ providing the means of salvation with His death on the cross was not "effective?" Nope"
And here is how it was misrepresented, "...you do not consider Jesus Atonement to be effective..."
Same old, same old...
Returning to topic,
How are we made righteous? By means of God crediting our faith as righteous, and on that basis putting us into Christ where we undergo the circumcision of Christ.
When are we made righteous? When God puts us into Christ and we undergo the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration.
Were we made righteous when Christ died on the cross? Nope See Romans 5:19 which says will be not were...
Since you cannot actually address me and the question I asked, I determine you are avoiding and/or unable to answer the question of atonement and righteousness.
Calvinists consistently and systemically misrepresent the biblical views of others.
Here is what I said, "Does that mean Christ providing the means of salvation with His death on the cross was not "effective?" Nope"
And here is how it was misrepresented, "...you do not consider Jesus Atonement to be effective..."
Same old, same old...
Returning to topic,
How are we made righteous? By means of God crediting our faith as righteous, and on that basis putting us into Christ where we undergo the circumcision of Christ.
When are we made righteous? When God puts us into Christ and we undergo the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration.
Were we made righteous when Christ died on the cross? Nope See Romans 5:19 which says will be not were...
Is Rom 5:19 expressed well by Paul in Phil 3:9 relative to what you are saying?
and be found in him, <the fut of Rom 5) not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through faith of Christ , <the passive of Rom 5) -- the righteousness that is of God by (unto) the faith,
Because of the death of Christ you can be found in the righteousness of God.
='s 2 Cor 5:21
Application? There is a thread titled Hebrews 9:27
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. then -- the end, 1 Cor 15:22,23, part 24
Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. Acts 15:14
16 After this I will return, (Seen in his own order, above, at his coming) and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
From Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (See, in his own order, above, then- the end)
Acts 15:17
V 18
Phil 2:10,11 ?????
Your thoughts Van?
Are you a Roman Catholic, or Greek orthodox then?Fiction
Yet another you, you, you post in flagrant violation of forum decorum...I notice you will not address me personally and will not address my question. All readers can see your tactic.
Since you cannot actually address me and the question I asked, I determine you are avoiding and/or unable to answer the question of atonement and righteousness.
Calvinists consistently and systemically misrepresent the biblical views of others.
Here is what I said, "Does that mean Christ providing the means of salvation with His death on the cross was not "effective?" Nope"
And here is how it was misrepresented, "...you do not consider Jesus Atonement to be effective..."
Same old, same old...
Returning to topic,
How are we made righteous? By means of God crediting our faith as righteous, and on that basis putting us into Christ where we undergo the circumcision of Christ.
When are we made righteous? When God puts us into Christ and we undergo the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration.
Were we made righteous when Christ died on the cross? Nope See Romans 5:19 which says will be not were...
Is Rom 5:19 expressed well by Paul in Phil 3:9 relative to what you are saying?
and be found in him, <the fut of Rom 5) not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through faith of Christ , <the passive of Rom 5) -- the righteousness that is of God by (unto) the faith,
Because of the death of Christ you can be found in the righteousness of God.
SNIP
Your thoughts Van?
When and if God puts an individual into Christ, they then undergo the washing of regeneration (made alive together with Christ).
Calvinists ask loaded questions to deflect from the topic at hand...Are you a Roman Catholic, or Greek orthodox then?
Calvinists consistently and systemically misrepresent the biblical views of others.
Here is what I said, "Does that mean Christ providing the means of salvation with His death on the cross was not "effective?" Nope"
And here is how it was misrepresented, "...you do not consider Jesus Atonement to be effective..."
Same old, same old...
Returning to topic,
How are we made righteous? By means of God crediting our faith as righteous, and on that basis putting us into Christ where we undergo the circumcision of Christ.
When are we made righteous? When God puts us into Christ and we undergo the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration.
Were we made righteous when Christ died on the cross? Nope See Romans 5:19 which says will be not were...
Address me personally, Van.Yet another you, you, you post in flagrant violation of forum decorum...
Calvinists consistently and systemically misrepresent the biblical views of others.
Here is what I said, "Does that mean Christ providing the means of salvation with His death on the cross was not "effective?" Nope"
And here is how it was misrepresented, "...you do not consider Jesus Atonement to be effective..."
Same old, same old...
Returning to topic,
How are we made righteous? By means of God crediting our faith as righteous, and on that basis putting us into Christ where we undergo the circumcision of Christ.
When are we made righteous? When God puts us into Christ and we undergo the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration.
Were we made righteous when Christ died on the cross? Nope See Romans 5:19 which says will be not were...
We are made right with God by grace alone, justified via Christ's atoning sacrifice alone, confirmed by the authored faith of Christ alone.
When and if God puts an individual into Christ, they then undergo the washing of regeneration (made alive together with Christ).
From your post; When and if God puts an individual into Christ,
I believe the following then takes place.
Romans 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” ----- Which puts one into Christ, into his body, the church. Eph 1:22,23 and all things He did put under his feet, and did give him -- head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of Him who is filling the all in all, ------
Where with patience and confidence we await ; From Romans 8:23 adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body;
IMHO - adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body; is the washing of regeneration, which is brought about in time by the Spirit of adoption. See Romans 8:11
I understand all or most of you will disagree with that, the very reason for IMHO.
Are we imputed the righteousness of Jesus, or infused with His grace then?Calvinists ask loaded questions to deflect from the topic at hand...
Calvinists consistently and systemically misrepresent the biblical views of others.
Here is what I said, "Does that mean Christ providing the means of salvation with His death on the cross was not "effective?" Nope"
And here is how it was misrepresented, "...you do not consider Jesus Atonement to be effective..."
Same old, same old...
Returning to topic,
How are we made righteous? By means of God crediting our faith as righteous, and on that basis putting us into Christ where we undergo the circumcision of Christ.
When are we made righteous? When God puts us into Christ and we undergo the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration.
Were we made righteous when Christ died on the cross? Nope See Romans 5:19 which says will be not were...
From your post; When and if God puts an individual into Christ,
I believe the following then takes place.
Romans 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” ----- Which puts one into Christ, into his body, the church. Eph 1:22,23 and all things He did put under his feet, and did give him -- head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of Him who is filling the all in all, ------
Where with patience and confidence we await ; From Romans 8:23 adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body;
IMHO - adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body; is the washing of regeneration, which is brought about in time by the Spirit of adoption. See Romans 8:11
I understand all or most of you will disagree with that, the very reason for IMHO.
Adoption refers to our bodily redemption at Christ's second coming.
We do not "receive the Spirit of adoption" (referring to our indwelt Holy Spirit Helper) until after God places us in Christ, thus we are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit.
Adoption has absolutely nothing to do with the washing of regeneration that occurs when we are made alive as a new creation in Christ Jesus. Only after we are made righteous are we indwelt.
Again, the nonsense is posted. Romans 5:19 is crystal...Are we imputed the righteousness of Jesus, or infused with His grace then?
How are we made righteous? By means of God crediting our faith as righteous, and on that basis putting us into Christ where we undergo the circumcision of Christ.
When are we made righteous? When God puts us into Christ and we undergo the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration.
Were we made righteous when Christ died on the cross? Nope See Romans 5:19 which says will be not were...