Making History (and Having Nobody Notice)

[Luke2427]

Sometimes there is an uncomfortable route in learning new things here on this board and having to admit one is wrong. I had read John of Japans threads for years, and did not realize he was a fundamentalist. His posts were/are Biblically correct. At the same time, I never bothered to read anything about the group, as I dismissed them as a group of nuts more interested in people not wearing short skirts and dancing than telling others about Jesus.

Then a while back, I made a comment on a thread relating to this subject, and to my shock, John was one and let me know it. I wanted to crawl into the nearest hole. Since then, reading their doctrine, and getting to know some, I was very wrong. I do not agree with some of their ideas about do's and dont's, but they are brothers and sisters in Christ, and are very fervent about being a Christian. It is a blessing to have them telling others the Gospel.

While I agree with this in principle I don't want niceties (which are good) to corrupt the facts.

The fact is that there is a good reason WHY you once thought all IFB folks were narrow minded, backwards people. Because so many are and because so many of us who have encountered many of them have seen that first hand.

The lesson you learned in encountering John is that not ALL of them are that way. That is a good and accurate lesson.

But it does not change the fact that many are out there smearing the name of fundamentalism with stupidity, hatefulness, hero worship and Phariseeism.

 

[12strings]

No, no. I have never heard of someone pat themselves on the back so much. Never heard of someone be so quick to claim the moral high ground.

Fundamentalists are not KNOWN for "loving and following God with all of their hearts, blah, blah, blah..."

That is NOT what they are KNOWN for.

That may be how they arrogantly view themselves, but it is not how objective observers view them.

People see them as divisive, Pharisaical, fault-finding, largely uneducated and backwards people who strain at gnats and swallow camels.

Now, whether or not that is accurate across the board is debatable.

But let's beam ourselves up from La-la Land where we think so highly of ourselves and where we think others see us as awesome as we see ourselves, ok?

1. Notice John did not say that is what they are KNOWN for...but rather what the one's he associates with are ABOUT...it is what they were about when they began.

2. I hate to point out the obvious, but you are the primary one on this particular thread who is being fault-finding and divisive.

3. It sounds to me like john is doing the very thing you wish the rest of wishy-washy christianity would do: man up, defend what you believe, regardless of how some people view you or the words you use to describe yourself.

4. http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/20-reasons-i-dont-take-potshots-at-fundamentalists

 

[Luke2427]

1. Notice John did not say that is what they are KNOWN for...but rather what the one's he associates with are ABOUT...it is what they were about when they began.

John often tries to paint himself as a tremendous person. This is another characteristic I see common in IFB. They exalt people well above what any people ought to be exalted. There may be no movement in history that is as deeply ensconced in hero worship. Their heroes are talked about as if they were gods. I remember the worship attributed to Bob Gray before it was reported that he was a child molester. Guys like Jack Hyles were extraordinary braggarts. Scripture says, "Let another man boast of thee and not thine own self."

In this case, it seems to me that John sees himself as an awesome person coming from an awesome movement and I felt compelled to bring this back down to reality a bit and point out that many IFB folks are doing more harm than good.

That there are some good guys out there is without question. But many of us are turned off when we hear people boast within the ranks of IFB since we know what we know and have seen what we have seen.

2. I hate to point out the obvious, but you are the primary one on this particular thread who is being fault-finding and divisive.

This is a debate site- not a local church and it is ok to be divisive so long as you are dividing people over the right things (the virgin birth, the Great Commission, the import of proper hermeneutics, etc...) not STUPID things like standards that have no basis in the Bible, teetotalism, KJVO, etc...

3. It sounds to me like john is doing the very thing you wish the rest of wishy-washy christianity would do: man up, defend what you believe, regardless of how some people view you or the words you use to describe yourself.

There seems to be more bragging that battling, imo- more magnifying people than making points.

4. http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/20-reasons-i-dont-take-potshots-at-fundamentalists

[/QUOTE]

I don't have time to look at this. Can you give me a brief synopsis?

I will say that I disagree with JP from time to time. I like him and really appreciate and respect him but find him to be a bit of a gusher at times and a little soft.

A good example of this would be his criticizing Douglas Wilson for his aggressive style.

Piper is no hippy, and he really is a hero of the faith but he is closer sometimes to hippy than I think he ought to be.

 

[John of Japan]

For some strange reason, this thread is now completely off topic and has become a thread about me. So I'll just bow out now. God bless all.

 

[Luke2427]

For some strange reason, this thread is now completely off topic and has become a thread about me. So I'll just bow out now. God bless all.

And I hate to keep turning the knife (or I hate that it is called for) but even this seems designed to show how humble and superior and above all of this you are.

Why not JUST bow out, rather than ANNOUNCING to everyone that you are going to do so??

Look, I think you have some very fine qualities, but this one is a problem and it is prevalent, imo, in the movement that you are a part of.

It is this "Look at me! Look at my moral superiority!" stuff.

God knows I've got my faults, too, but people don't hesitate to point mine out. It seems like you've learned to play the humble-card well enough to not have yours pointed out as often. But I think my pointing this out to you will help you be a better man.

Spurgeon said, "A man is not a good man if he doesn't think he ought to be a better man."

 

[Salty]

And I hate to keep turning the knife (or I hate that it is called for) but even this seems designed to show how humble and superior and above all of this you are.

Why not JUST bow out, rather than ANNOUNCING to everyone that you are going to do so?? /QUOTE]

Could be that if he bowed out without saying anything - and then you asked a few more questions of him then you would quibble that he was refusing to answer.
Seems like he cant win either way.

 

[Luke2427]

And I hate to keep turning the knife (or I hate that it is called for) but even this seems designed to show how humble and superior and above all of this you are.

Why not JUST bow out, rather than ANNOUNCING to everyone that you are going to do so?? /QUOTE]

Could be that if he bowed out without saying anything - and then you asked a few more questions of him then you would quibble that he was refusing to answer.
Seems like he cant win either way.

I've debated him before. He bows out when it is convenient. He can be as stubborn and tenacious as anybody. If it was his past pattern to consistently be as noble as he seems to want you to think he is, then I would think your point is perfectly valid. But it seems that he is someone who loves to be bragged on. That seems to me to be a more likely motive for this feigned "bowing out." At least that has been my experience with John.

 

[sag38]

Pot, meet Kettle

 

[Squire Robertsson]

The operative word in this quote

The accusation of being largely uneducated is most certainly not accurate

is accusation. And I was replying to a previous statement of yours. Which I quoted. Further, I was speaking to the theological education of some of Fundamental Baptist leaders. If that wasn't was what you were referring to in your quote I referenced, I'm sorry for getting of on the wrong foot.

I think the word "largely" negates the needfulness of your statement here.

There can not be a stupider faith in the world, in my opinion, than Mormonism yet there are some Mormons who are highly educated.

Saying there are several people who are educated coming out of a movement that is VASTLY backwards and uneducated does not negate in any way the fact that the MOVEMENT is still VASTLY backwards and uneducated- at least it is viewed that way.

It is the personal testimony of myself and others who have been exposed to large swath's of IFB life that most of the preachers and people we've seen are rather backwards clinging to doctrines (like KJVO for example) that no remotely intelligent person could hold to.

Yes, yes, I know, I know. Not every IFB is KJVO- as if that is the only backwards belief prevalent in the movement. I know, I know.

And I also know the other thing some of you will say here- this business about the IFB being SO massive that there is no way I could have seen enough of them to make this judgment. Then I will obliterate that notion saying I have been to meetings and seen other meetings where thousands of IFB pastors gather to shout AMEN at the stupidest, most backwards preaching one can imagine.

Then the person who still resists my arguments will just call me ugly names and insinuate all kinds of dumb stuff about me like I am some little kid or something who does not know what he is talking about... yada, yada, yada, blah, blah, blah... (even though I have been preaching for 17 years and am a father of five children and have been a senior pastor for ten years...

I'm not saying you would do it Squire. I'm just saying that's the way these things usually go.

 

[Luke2427]

The operative word in this quote is accusation. And I was replying to a previous statement of yours. Which I quoted. Further, I was speaking to the theological education of some of Fundamental Baptist leaders. If that wasn't was what you were referring to in your quote I referenced, I'm sorry for getting of on the wrong foot.

Was that statement intended to be a refutation of my comment or not?

I said nothing that indicated that there were NO educated people within the ranks of IFB.

I said the IFB movement is perceived by many to be LARGELY uneducated.

I did not say that I perceive it to be TOTALLY uneducated.

 

[Arbo]

And I hate to keep turning the knife (or I hate that it is called for) but even this seems designed to show how humble and superior and above all of this you are.

Why not JUST bow out, rather than ANNOUNCING to everyone that you are going to do so??

Look, I think you have some very fine qualities, but this one is a problem and it is prevalent, imo, in the movement that you are a part of.

It is this "Look at me! Look at my moral superiority!" stuff.

God knows I've got my faults, too, but people don't hesitate to point mine out. It seems like you've learned to play the humble-card well enough to not have yours pointed out as often. But I think my pointing this out to you will help you be a better man.

Spurgeon said, "A man is not a good man if he doesn't think he ought to be a better man."

And with this, we have the Ironic Post of the Month Award winner.