Man’s Duty vs. God’s Elective Purpose Explained

[Reformed1689]

Yes it could be. Much of Gods Truth must be spiritually discerned, its not black and white all the time, that's why the natural man cant discern it.

And you have spiritually discerned the non-elect are not called to repent? That's ridiculous and your own making.

 

[Reformed1689]

Not for you

Nope, can't in general or you would.

 

[George Antonios]

The answer is very simple.
God meant exactly what He said.
Dying,thou shalt surely die.
He did not say, dying you will be slightly wounded,or slightly confused in need of a touch of rehab.God meant what He said.

I do not question God's perfect wisdom at all.
Sounds as if you doubt God is perfect and Holy in His wisdom, His omniscience.
You want to suggest your idea of what took place at the fall would be superior to what God did?
I cannot understand why a person could entertain any such possibility.prov3:5

That is not my point, nor the issue. I have no idea what to say anymore. I think the point is clear to any honest reader.

 

[Protestant]

The answer is very simple.
God meant exactly what He said.
Dying,thou shalt surely die.
He did not say, dying you will be slightly wounded,or slightly confused in need of a touch of rehab.God meant what He said.

I do not question God's perfect wisdom at all.
Sounds as if you doubt God is perfect and Holy in His wisdom, His omniscience.
You want to suggest your idea of what took place at the fall would be superior to what God did?
I cannot understand why a person could entertain any such possibility.prov3:5

Iconoclast: Like you, I have attempted to discern the underlying concerns which trouble George A. As I see it, his goal is to prove the inconsistency and unrighteousness of a holy just God requiring from man that which He ‘programmed’ man incapable of doing.

As a fervent non-Calvinist, he views man as NOT completely fallen, spiritually dead – without a spark of spiritual discernment left in him.

So rather than prove this doctrinal point, he has taken the backdoor approach: proving Calvinists disparage the good character of God by positing an evil command requiring man to do the very thing which He ‘programmed’ man NOT to do: believe the Gospel.

The Error of this Argument Explained

George A. assumes the very argument he has yet to prove. This is called ‘begging the question.’ He first must prove the command to believe given all men, including the Reprobate, is evil.

This requires George to be the judge of His Creator.

The Apostle Paul answers this foolish attempt at judging God:

O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? (Romans 9: 20).

Moreover, George must ignore the truth of God’s judicial hardening of Pharoah’s heart in order to prevent him from obeying the command to ‘Let My People Go’ (Exodus 7:1-4).

And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.

3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

4 But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you

This scriptural truth contains the very elements which greatly disturb George A. The Lord God punishes Pharaoh and the Egyptians quite severely for not obeying the command which He ‘programmed’ Pharaoh NOT to obey.

May our merciful God open the minds and hearts of all sincere professing Christians to understand that God’s commands and judgments are always just, righteous and holy, though we may not comprehend the reasoning behind them.

As for God, his way is perfect: The LORD’s word is flawless; he shields all who take refuge in him (Psalm 82:30 NIV).

 

[Brightfame52]

And you have spiritually discerned the non-elect are not called to repent? That's ridiculous and your own making.

Correct, the non elect are the ones God created as vessels of wrath and is fitting them for destruction. Repentance is premised on Christs shed Blood and the forgiveness of sins. Christ did not die for the non elect, the goats, the tares.

 

[Brightfame52]

Nope, can't in general or you would.

Not for you.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Its scripture principle,

I'm intrigued by your 'Scripture principle.' Is it not a Scripture principle that 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved' (Joel 2:32; Acts of the Apostles 2:21; Romans 10:12-13)? And Paul makes it very clear in v.12 that the 'everyone' includes both Jew and Gentile.

Paul is writing to believers, they are the elect.

Paul makes the general working assumption that the members of the churches that he writes to are Christians, but he was wise enough to know that such is not always the case, which is why he wrote 2 Corinthians 13:5 and Galatians 4:20.

Christ died for believers, not unbelievers who remain permanently unbelievers.

Christ died for the ungodly, for sinners and for those who were His enemies (Romans 5:6-11). Paul tells us that the specific reason that Christ Jesus came into the world is to save sinners (1 Timothy 1:15).
Look, Brightfame, I believe absolutely in Particular (I prefer 'definite') Redemption and all the other points of Calvinism, but I also believe that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. I don't feel the need to make a choice as to which one I prefer, because I happily accept them both. I also believe that we are called to preach the Gospel to all and to bid all men come to Christ. Not to do that is the test the Lord, not to mention disobeying His command.

This Lord's day I am preaching on Matthew 1:21 and I shall not shy away from the particular nature of that verse. But that will not stop me from assuring all those present that if they will come to Christ He will by no means cast them out.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Correct, the non elect are the ones God created as vessels of wrath and is fitting them for destruction. Repentance is premised on Christs shed Blood and the forgiveness of sins. Christ did not die for the non elect, the goats, the tares.

“All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”[Matthew 28:18-20]

As part of the Great Commission, we are to take the word out into the world and preach it to all ppl, not just a few. We don’t have an “elect radar” that tells us who is elect and who is not, so we preach it to everyone not just some.

 

[Brightfame52]

I'm intrigued by your 'Scripture principle.' Is it not a Scripture principle that 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved' (Joel 2:32; Acts of the Apostles 2:21; Romans 10:12-13)? And Paul makes it very clear in v.12 that the 'everyone' includes both Jew and Gentile.
Paul makes the general working assumption that the members of the churches that he writes to are Christians, but he was wise enough to know that such is not always the case, which is why he wrote 2 Corinthians 13:5 and Galatians 4:20. Christ died for the ungodly, for sinners and for those who were His enemies (Romans 5:6-11). Paul tells us that the specific reason that Christ Jesus came into the world is to save sinners (1 Timothy 1:15).
Look, Brightfame, I believe absolutely in Particular (I prefer 'definite') Redemption and all the other points of Calvinism, but I also believe that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. I don't feel the need to make a choice as to which one I prefer, because I happily accept them both. I also believe that we are called to preach the Gospel to all and to bid all men come to Christ. Not to do that is the test the Lord, not to mention disobeying His command.

This Lord's day I am preaching on Matthew 1:21 and I shall not shy away from the particular nature of that verse. But that will not stop me from assuring all those present that if they will come to Christ He will by no means cast them out.

God only commands the elect to repent. No repentance has been given to the vessels of wrath.. The ones who shall call upon the name of the Lord are those whom God shall call with an effectual call, the elect. Joel 2:32


And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

The remnant according to the election of Grace. Again Peter preached Acts 2:21,39


And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

The command to repent when Peter preached in Acts 2 was to the elect remnant Acts 2:38

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Brightfame52]

“All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”[Matthew 28:18-20]

As part of the Great Commission, we are to take the word out into the world and preach it to all ppl, not just a few. We don’t have an “elect radar” that tells us who is elect and who is not, so we preach it to everyone not just some.

And ? The non elect arent commanded to repent ? Why ? Christ didnt die for them ? He didn't put away their sins. See repentance is coupled with faith in Christ Acts 20:21

21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now does the Holy Spirit lead the non elect to Faith in Christ ? Did Christ put away the sins of the non elect ?

 

[Reformed1689]

Correct, the non elect are the ones God created as vessels of wrath and is fitting them for destruction. Repentance is premised on Christs shed Blood and the forgiveness of sins. Christ did not die for the non elect, the goats, the tares.

Yeah that premise is not found ANYWHERE in Scriptue. It is unbiblical. All are called to repent. The lack of repentance, obedience, calling Christ Lord is why they are condemened.

 

[SovereignGrace]

And ? The non elect arent commanded to repent ? Why ? Christ didnt die for them ? He didn't put away their sins. See repentance is coupled with faith in Christ Acts 20:21

21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now does the Holy Spirit lead the non elect to Faith in Christ ? Did Christ put away the sins of the non elect ?

No one is saying the Holy Spirit is leading the non-elect to repent. That’s a red herring coming from you.

All men are to believe in God, even those who’ve never heard of Christ, His gospel, or read His word. Just because they’ve never believed in Him, it doesn’t negate their responsibility to do so.

“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.”[Mark 16:15]. When you find “elect” and not “all creation”, “every creature”, come back and let’s talk, k?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yeah that premise is not found ANYWHERE in Scriptue. It is unbiblical. All are called to repent. The lack of repentance, obedience, calling Christ Lord is why they are condemened.

They are condemned already. I’m sure you know this, but I’m posting this to not give someone an out…like they can find one.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yeah that premise is not found ANYWHERE in Scriptue. It is unbiblical. All are called to repent. The lack of repentance, obedience, calling Christ Lord is why they are condemened.

He holds to Eternal Justification and God is the author of sin, so this goofball belief of his is par for his course.

 

[Reformed1689]

They are condemned already. I’m sure you know this, but I’m posting this to not give someone an out…like they can find one.

Two sides of the same coin but yes.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

God only commands the elect to repent. No repentance has been given to the vessels of wrath.. The ones who shall call upon the name of the Lord are those whom God shall call with an effectual call, the elect. Joel 2:32

Whether deliberately or not, you're still not getting it and this will be my last post to you on this thread. You are denying the plain words of the Holy Spirit. 'God now commands all men everywhere to repent.' The 'vessels of wrath' are commanded to repent and believe on Christ for salvation, and are assured that if they will do so they will be saved. Now the fact is that they will not do so because they have wicked, unbelieving hearts, but they are nonetheless called to do so and, if they do not, are responsible for their own grief.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

The remnant according to the election of Grace. Again Peter preached Acts 2:21,39
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

The command to repent when Peter preached in Acts 2 was to the elect remnant Acts 2:38.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

No! You are wresting the Scriptures and need to repent of it. His call was to every one of his listeners (v.38). It is doubtless true that only those whom the Lord called were saved. These were the people in v.41 who 'gladly received his word,' though doubtless some of those were stony ground hearers or those sown among thorns (Luke 8:13-14 etc.). But the call went out to all! 'Every one of you!' 'And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation' (v.40).

It is the duty of all men and women to repent and to trust in Christ; and if they will not do so it is sin. 'And when He [the Holy Spirit] is come, He will convict the world .........of sin, because they do not believe in Me' (John 16:8-9).

 

[Brightfame52]

Yeah that premise is not found ANYWHERE in Scriptue. It is unbiblical. All are called to repent. The lack of repentance, obedience, calling Christ Lord is why they are condemened.

My premise is that God made some people to be vessels of wrath, to die in their sins and suffer His eternal wrath. You dont believe that ?

 

[Brightfame52]

No one is saying the Holy Spirit is leading the non-elect to repent. That’s a red herring coming from you.

All men are to believe in God, even those who’ve never heard of Christ, His gospel, or read His word. Just because they’ve never believed in Him, it doesn’t negate their responsibility to do so.

“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.”[Mark 16:15]. When you find “elect” and not “all creation”, “every creature”, come back and let’s talk, k?

Do you not understand that repentance is coupled with Faith in Christ ? So if the non elect repent and Christ didn't die for their sins, what's the reason for Faith in Christ. Does God call people and give them Faith in Christ even though Christ did not die and put away their sins ?

 

[Brightfame52]

Whether deliberately or not, you're still not getting it and this will be my last post to you on this thread. You are denying the plain words of the Holy Spirit. 'God now commands all men everywhere to repent.' The 'vessels of wrath' are commanded to repent and believe on Christ for salvation, and are assured that if they will do so they will be saved. Now the fact is that they will not do so because they have wicked, unbelieving hearts, but they are nonetheless called to do so and, if they do not, are responsible for their own grief.

No! You are wresting the Scriptures and need to repent of it. His call was to every one of his listeners (v.38). It is doubtless true that only those whom the Lord called were saved. These were the people in v.41 who 'gladly received his word,' though doubtless some of those were stony ground hearers or those sown among thorns (Luke 8:13-14 etc.). But the call went out to all! 'Every one of you!' 'And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation' (v.40).

It is the duty of all men and women to repent and to trust in Christ; and if they will not do so it is sin. 'And when He [the Holy Spirit] is come, He will convict the world .........of sin, because they do not believe in Me' (John 16:8-9).

Its simple, the command to repent is to the elect, everywhere, , from all nations.

 

[Brightfame52]

martin

The 'vessels of wrath' are commanded to repent and believe on Christ for salvation, and are assured that if they will do so they will be saved.

Thats as false as it gets, Its to make God change His Purpose for the vessels of wrath, the very purpose for their creation.