Man & Creation: Good or Bad

[Scarlett O.]

Now surely Amy G. you can see the difference between a person who slaughters unborn babies and one who tries to prevent the slaughter of unborn babies?

Pardon the interruption into this conversation, but OldRegular, surely you can see that if we were to take that hypothetical person who is trying to prevent the slaughter of unborn children and we were able to peer into the secrets of his heart and mind that we would find things there - past and present - that are as vile and as wicked as one can imagine.

"Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks" and in my opinion, it's about of the abundance of the heart and the mind that the actions come.

 

[OldRegular]

Where do the scriptures say a man is unable to believe?

John 5:40. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

And to say a man is not as evil as he could be admits he is not enslaved to his sin nature. If man were truly enslaved to his sin nature, he would always choose to do the most evil thing he could do. He would be compelled to do so.

Your logic is illogical and incorrect; note the Scripture below.

So, when Calvinists say a man is enslaved to his sin nature, and then say he is not as evil as he might be is a direct contradiction.

I am not a Calvinist so you are obviously not referring to me.:tongue3: But Scripture states that the unregenerate man is the servant of sin.

John 8:34. Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Romans 6:12. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Romans 6:16. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Romans 6:17. But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Romans 6:20. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Scripture also states that sometime men are worse than others. See Verse 12.

Jeremiah 16:10-13
10. And it shall come to pass, when thou shalt shew this people all these words, and they shall say unto thee, Wherefore hath the LORD pronounced all this great evil against us? or what is our iniquity? or what is our sin that we have committed against the LORD our God?
11. Then shalt thou say unto them, Because your fathers have forsaken me, saith the LORD, and have walked after other gods, and have served them, and have worshipped them, and have forsaken me, and have not kept my law;
12. And ye have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, ye walk every one after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not hearken unto me:
13. Therefore will I cast you out of this land into a land that ye know not, neither ye nor your fathers; and there shall ye serve other gods day and night; where I will not shew you favour.

 

[Yeshua1]

From and interesting Sunday School Discussion:

Original Question: Is Man fundamentally Good or Bad?

Point 1: God declared all creation "GOOD" when he made it. So a brick for example, is not merely neutral (not good or bad). It is actually made of good dirt that God declared good. So a tree, dirt, frog, piece of wood...while they could be used for good or evil...are not merely neutral, they are GOOD! Affected by the curse, yes, not as good as they could be yes, But isn't their fundamental nature GOOD?

Application to Humans? I have always been taught that human beings WERE good, but NOW are fallen, and so fundamentally Evil and bad...BUT...would it not be more biblically accurate to say that man is FUNDAMENTALLY a GOOD creature? A fallen, sinful, creature with a wicked, deceptive heart, but a GOOD CREATION?

So how can we answer the question, is Man fundamentally good or evil? Or Both?

before the fall, Adam was morally perfect, good
after the fall, now a sinner, immoral, not good!

 

[percho]

From and interesting Sunday School Discussion:

Original Question: Is Man fundamentally Good or Bad?

Point 1: God declared all creation "GOOD" when he made it. So a brick for example, is not merely neutral (not good or bad). It is actually made of good dirt that God declared good. So a tree, dirt, frog, piece of wood...while they could be used for good or evil...are not merely neutral, they are GOOD! Affected by the curse, yes, not as good as they could be yes, But isn't their fundamental nature GOOD?

Application to Humans? I have always been taught that human beings WERE good, but NOW are fallen, and so fundamentally Evil and bad...BUT...would it not be more biblically accurate to say that man is FUNDAMENTALLY a GOOD creature? A fallen, sinful, creature with a wicked, deceptive heart, but a GOOD CREATION?

So how can we answer the question, is Man fundamentally good or evil? Or Both?

Man was created for good, however the first man Adam created in the image of God was only the beginning of the creation of man, in that the last Adam, the Son of God, the Son of Man, coming in the image of the first Adam through death would destroy death and corruption by washing of regeneration and renewing of Spirit Holy, incorruptible life, and then man could also be regenerated, that is conformed to the image of the resurrected Son of God.

This will be done by the election of God.

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; in him:

 

[HankD]

Where do the scriptures say a man is unable to believe?

And to say a man is not as evil as he could be admits he is not enslaved to his sin nature. If man were truly enslaved to his sin nature, he would always choose to do the most evil thing he could do. He would be compelled to do so.

So, when Calvinists say a man is enslaved to his sin nature, and then say he is not as evil as he might be is a direct contradiction.

Scripture says we love darkness rather than light. Whether that means "unable" to do good or not is debatable.

The scripture does indicates that even the "good" we do is probably centered in narcissism and/or self-aggrandizement (filthy rags) - Luke 18:10-13.

Also there are constraints which hold us back from doing a full expression of the evil that is bound up in our desparately wicked hearts (See post 17).

Thanks
HankD

 

[Winman]

Scripture says we love darkness rather than light. Whether that means "unable" to do good or not is debatable.

Scripture does not say all men love darkness.

Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

These verses are not saying all men love darkness, they are contrasting two kinds of men, men who love evil, and men who do truth.

The scripture does indicates that even the "good" we do is probably centered in narcissism and/or self-aggrandizement (filthy rags) - Luke 18:10-13.

Even Christians do good in self interest. Any Christian would love to hear the Lord say, "Well done thou good and faithful servant". All Christians hope to please God, this is self interest. How is this any different from a non-Christian who desires to please God?

So, this argument does not cut it with me.

Also there are constraints which hold us back from doing a full expression of the evil that is bound up in our desparately wicked hearts (See post 17).

Thanks
HankD

If a man is utterly enslaved to his sin nature, then he would ALWAYS do the very worst thing he could do. The fact that even unsaved men choose to do good proves they are not enslaved to sin.

When the scriptures say we are enslaved to sin, it is not speaking of ability. It is not saying a man is compelled by his nature to do evil.

What it means to be enslaved by sin is that we are under the law, and because of sin we are condemned to death. There is no escape from this condemnation, we are held in it, we are enslaved. Even if a man does good, he must still pay for his sin, and the wages of sin is death.

When we accept Christ we are baptized into his body. We died with him to sin, and rose again with him to life. We are no longer under the dominion of the law and sin, we are now free, we are under grace.

This is where folks go wrong, they believe a man is enslaved or compelled to sin. No man is compelled to sin, otherwise he could not be responsible for doing the only thing he can do. It is only because a man can choose to do either good or evil that he is responsible.

That said, once a man sins, he has come under the dominion and power of sin, and the wages are death. This is how a man is enslaved.

 

[Yeshua1]

Scripture says we love darkness rather than light. Whether that means "unable" to do good or not is debatable.

The scripture does indicates that even the "good" we do is probably centered in narcissism and/or self-aggrandizement (filthy rags) - Luke 18:10-13.

Also there are constraints which hold us back from doing a full expression of the evil that is bound up in our desparately wicked hearts (See post 17).

Thanks
HankD

also, manytimes the non cals confuse us with stating than man being totally depraived means nothing good can be done by Him...

NO! rather than we can still go good deeds/works, be moral etc...

just in regards to salvation, NOT good enough to save ourselves, cannot keep the law as now sinners, nor do we even desire tocome to lnow God thru Jesus, as we are in the dark, and at war with him in our present state!

can be very religious, but NOT saved sense apart from the work and Grace of God!

Also, many miss the point that we are seperated from god NOT by choicing to sin, rejecting jesus etc, but because we are born sinners, spiritual dead to him!

Our deadness results/caused the seperation, its due to who we are, NOT what we have chosen to do!

 

[Winman]

also, manytimes the non cals confuse us with stating than man being totally depraived means nothing good can be done by Him...

NO! rather than we can still go good deeds/works, be moral etc...

just in regards to salvation, NOT good enough to save ourselves, cannot keep the law as now sinners, nor do we even desire tocome to lnow God thru Jesus, as we are in the dark, and at war with him in our present state!

can be very religious, but NOT saved sense apart from the work and Grace of God!

Also, many miss the point that we are seperated from god NOT by choicing to sin, rejecting jesus etc, but because we are born sinners, spiritual dead to him!

Our deadness results/caused the seperation, its due to who we are, NOT what we have chosen to do!

And I would disagree with you, there is not one verse of scripture that says all men are born sinners.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

This verse is speaking of Esau and Jacob when they were very much alive in their mother's womb and says they had done no evil. They were not sinners.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

This verse shows little children cannot distinguish between good and evil. This verse also shows man has the ability to refuse evil and choose good. This absolutely refutes Total Depravity as Calvinists understand it.

Deut 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

This verse shows little children cannot discern what is good and evil. God did not punish these children for their parent's sin, but allowed them to go into the Promised Land. All the parents died in the wilderness.

There are many more verses like this that shows little children have not sinned, they cannot understand between good and evil and are therefore not held accountable until they mature and understand. They are not sinners.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

This verse says God has made all men upright. I showed you scripture that said Jacob and Esau had not sinned as babies.

Now you show me ANY scripture that says all men are born sinners.

 

[Yeshua1]

And I would disagree with you, there is not one verse of scripture that says all men are born sinners.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

This verse is speaking of Esau and Jacob when they were very much alive in their mother's womb and says they had done no evil. They were not sinners.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

This verse shows little children cannot distinguish between good and evil. This verse also shows man has the ability to refuse evil and choose good. This absolutely refutes Total Depravity as Calvinists understand it.

Deut 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

This verse shows little children cannot discern what is good and evil. God did not punish these children for their parent's sin, but allowed them to go into the Promised Land. All the parents died in the wilderness.

There are many more verses like this that shows little children have not sinned, they cannot understand between good and evil and are therefore not held accountable until they mature and understand. They are not sinners.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

This verse says God has made all men upright. I showed you scripture that said Jacob and Esau had not sinned as babies.

Now you show me ANY scripture that says all men are born sinners.

what are you then at birth, if NOT one with a sin nature?

 

[OldRegular]

Scripture does not say all men love darkness.

No Winman, it says worse:

From Post#5:

Scripture tells us again:

Romans 3:10-18
10. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14. Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15. Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16. Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17. And the way of peace have they not known:
18. There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Read it Winman, Romans 3:11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

None means Zero! Do you know of any people like those the Apostle describes?

 

[Yeshua1]

No Winman, it says worse:

From Post#5:



Read it Winman, Romans 3:11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

None means Zero! Do you know of any people like those the Apostle describes?

per him though, still were not called sinners!

 

[HankD]

Scripture does not say all men love darkness.

Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

These verses are not saying all men love darkness, they are contrasting two kinds of men, men who love evil, and men who do truth.

Even Christians do good in self interest. Any Christian would love to hear the Lord say, "Well done thou good and faithful servant". All Christians hope to please God, this is self interest. How is this any different from a non-Christian who desires to please God?

So, this argument does not cut it with me.

If a man is utterly enslaved to his sin nature, then he would ALWAYS do the very worst thing he could do. The fact that even unsaved men choose to do good proves they are not enslaved to sin.

When the scriptures say we are enslaved to sin, it is not speaking of ability. It is not saying a man is compelled by his nature to do evil.

What it means to be enslaved by sin is that we are under the law, and because of sin we are condemned to death. There is no escape from this condemnation, we are held in it, we are enslaved. Even if a man does good, he must still pay for his sin, and the wages of sin is death.

When we accept Christ we are baptized into his body. We died with him to sin, and rose again with him to life. We are no longer under the dominion of the law and sin, we are now free, we are under grace.

This is where folks go wrong, they believe a man is enslaved or compelled to sin. No man is compelled to sin, otherwise he could not be responsible for doing the only thing he can do. It is only because a man can choose to do either good or evil that he is responsible.

That said, once a man sins, he has come under the dominion and power of sin, and the wages are death. This is how a man is enslaved.

I never phrased it as we are "compelled" to sin.

However the scripture plainly says men loved darkness rather than light...

No distinction here is made between "good" and "bad", there is no such thing.

Birds fly, it is their nature, fish swin - ditto, we sin (it is universal and unlearned) - it is our nature and comes from a heart which is desparately wicked.

Those who "do the truth" and "come to the light " are like the man in the temple who said "God be mefciful to me a (Lit. the) "sinner".

So if you mean "doeth truth" as being a positive response to the conviction of the Holy Spirit then I agree. The debatable part is whether we are even able to make this positive response on our own without the assistance of God. I believe it is probably a cooperative act with God taking the lead and supplying the power of the will.

In the case of the publican it apparently began working on him before he even came to the temple.

He acknowledged the truth (he was a sinner) and came to the light (metaphorically - the temple) and then went home justified.

Before that he was a sinner one which loved darkness just like every one else.

I also agree that we are only held accountable for that which comes forth from a mature will which knows good and evil by conviction.

HankD

 

[Winman]

what are you then at birth, if NOT one with a sin nature?

You can read, what does Ecc 7:29 say?

 

[Yeshua1]

You can read, what does Ecc 7:29 say?

So you saying saying that we are born good, and later become sinners?

 

[jbh28]

So you saying saying that we are born good, and later become sinners?

which is of course unbilbical. Man was man upright as Ecc 7:29 says, but man sin and since has been born in sin as the Bible clearly teaches. Ps 51:5

 

[Winman]

So you saying saying that we are born good, and later become sinners?

I didn't write Ecc 7:29, God did. I am not the one who said God has made man upright, God said it through his holy scriptures.

 

[freeatlast]

From and interesting Sunday School Discussion:

Original Question: Is Man fundamentally Good or Bad?

Point 1: God declared all creation "GOOD" when he made it. So a brick for example, is not merely neutral (not good or bad). It is actually made of good dirt that God declared good. So a tree, dirt, frog, piece of wood...while they could be used for good or evil...are not merely neutral, they are GOOD! Affected by the curse, yes, not as good as they could be yes, But isn't their fundamental nature GOOD?

Application to Humans? I have always been taught that human beings WERE good, but NOW are fallen, and so fundamentally Evil and bad...BUT...would it not be more biblically accurate to say that man is FUNDAMENTALLY a GOOD creature? A fallen, sinful, creature with a wicked, deceptive heart, but a GOOD CREATION?

So how can we answer the question, is Man fundamentally good or evil? Or Both?

The creation was good and man was part of it. Now that he has fallen he is evil.

 

[Winman]

which is of course unbilbical. Man was man upright as Ecc 7:29 says, but man sin and since has been born in sin as the Bible clearly teaches. Ps 51:5

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

I am sorry, but I fail to see how this says ALL men are born sinners. You might possibly argue that David was saying HE was born a sinner, but it certainly does not say all men are born sinners.

But David also said he was cast upon the Lord from the womb.

Psa 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

David also said he was fearfully and wonderfully made, that God possessed him in his mother's womb.

Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

What would be wonderful about being born a depraved sinner?

Maybe instead of mindlessly accepting what Reformed theologians have taught you, you should read the whole scriptures.

Psa 51:5 does not prove all men are born sinners, it does not even prove David was born a sinner. David was simply speaking of being born into a sinful world. This is how the Jews have always interpreted this verse. In fact, the Jews do not believe in original sin.

 

[jbh28]

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

I am sorry, but I fail to see how this says ALL men are born sinners. You might possibly argue that David was saying HE was born a sinner, but it certainly does not say all men are born sinners.

...
Psa 51:5 does not prove all men are born sinners, it does not even prove David was born a sinner. David was simply speaking of being born into a sinful world. This is how the Jews have always interpreted this verse. In fact, the Jews do not believe in original sin.

Go read the context of Psalm 51. David is talking about his sin, not the sinful world. We are all born dead in sins as David said and Paul said..... Stop trying to wiggle your way out of the clear teachings of scripture by trying to teach good in man.

 

[HankD]

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

I am sorry, but I fail to see how this says ALL men are born sinners. You might possibly argue that David was saying HE was born a sinner, but it certainly does not say all men are born sinners.

But David also said he was cast upon the Lord from the womb.

Psa 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

David also said he was fearfully and wonderfully made, that God possessed him in his mother's womb.

Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

What would be wonderful about being born a depraved sinner?

Maybe instead of mindlessly accepting what Reformed theologians have taught you, you should read the whole scriptures.

Psa 51:5 does not prove all men are born sinners, it does not even prove David was born a sinner. David was simply speaking of being born into a sinful world. This is how the Jews have always interpreted this verse. In fact, the Jews do not believe in original sin.

Hi Winman,

I am surprised that you have never used John the Baptist to support your argument (maybe you have and I haven't seen it).

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.​

Those who are filled with the Holy Ghost are called "good".​

Concerning Barnabas:​

Acts 11:24 For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.​

But then again John the Baptist is apparently singled out for this gift.

HankD​