Man head of house?

[Luke2427]

I didn't say that. Sometimes I think you just disagree because I'm the one who said it and not because you actually disagree with what is said.

'Calling the shots' is phrase implying a more 'ruling' approach rather than a servant leadership approach. That is all I was meaning. I believe if you were a bit more objective concerning your feelings toward me you may have better seen that as my intent.

I never accused you or anyone here of misunderstanding the concept of authority. I said that it has been my experience that many do abuse and misapply the concepts of what they think is biblical authority and male headship.

Regarding the passage I believe the phrase, "Husbands, in the same way.." indicate dual submission. In fact, given that the greatest is the least in God's economy I'd suggest that men are called to a greater level of submission than is the woman in this passage. A call to submission is a call to greatness and Christlike leadership in God's kingdom.

That is not AT ALL what "in the same way" means.

Wives submit

Husbands love.

That's God's way.

Spin it any way you like. It is not going to change the CRYSTAL CLARITY with which the Scripture repeatedly addresses the issue.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Why don't we define, rather than argue, the roles of the husband and the wife?

Is there biblical support for mutually reached decisions?

Is there biblical support for the husband to "run the family," i.e., make all decisions financial, ethical, spiritual?

Is there biblical support for the husband to be the spiritual head of the family?

Is there biblical support for taking advantage of the gifts and talents of both the husband and the wife to handle differing aspects of family function, with the husband taking the spiritual lead as God-given to him?

Is there biblical support for the wife to take the spiritual lead when the husband won't, or can't?

If we answer those questions, I think we will all better understand what the real discussion is about. I didn't vote in the poll, by the way. I can't support either response as they are written.

 

[Skandelon]

That is not AT ALL what "in the same way" means.

Wives submit

Husbands love.

That's God's way.

Spin it any way you like. It is not going to change the CRYSTAL CLARITY with which the Scripture repeatedly addresses the issue.

Spin it? Really Luke? I know we differ regarding our soteriology, but we don't have to carry that difference into other discussions.

If you honestly think loving someone doesn't involve serving them and submitting yourself then I'd dare to say you haven't ever really loved anyone. Sorry if that offends you but I say it in love as one man to another. Maybe its just that your view of "submission" and/or "love" is different than mine and we really are much closer than we think on this issue. I pray that is the case for your sake, and your wife's...

We are to love our wives like Christ loved the church and we know Christ served the church and submitted himself even unto death for her...how much more submissive can one be than Christ? The LEAST, the MOST SUBMISSIVE, is the GREATEST in God's kingdom, Luke. The one who serves the most, gives up his own desires in order to meet the desires of others the most, is the leader...the true biblical leader.

 

[Skandelon]

Yes, that's what Skandelon's advocating- with the rest of culture.

Read what I wrote Luke. Respond to my actual words. We can do better than this, brother.

 

[Revmitchell]

Yes the Husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church. The marriage is a picture of the relationship between Christ and the church.

The misses and I always talk things out and make decisions together. But ultimately I have the responsibility to lead my home and the final say on all matters.

 

[Skandelon]

False dichotomy.

You assume that because he is to "serve" his wife that he is not supposed to, as you say, "call the shots."

My brain surgeon serves me by telling me what I ought to do. He serves me by ensuring that I submit myself to his care.

You have made the authority of the man absolutely NOTHING.

If you in any way actually think that a marriage is in any way fitting of the analogy of a brain sturgeon and a patient...(i.e. you, the expert trained doctor, as the husband, and your wife, the uneducated needy patient), then I honestly feel sorry for your spouse. I cannot think of a single time in my marriage that approaching my wife as the "expert know-it-all" would be healthy. Sorry, maybe that is not the way you meant it, but its the way it sounds to me coming from someone who I know has a very 'strong' personality like yourself.

Biblical authority comes from serving and loving, not from ruling, dictating or a I'm 'calling the shots' attitude.

 

[Revmitchell]

If you in any way actually think that a marriage is in any way fitting of the analogy of a brain sturgeon and a patient...

It seems to be his go to analogy on a number of issues lately. :laugh:

 

[sag38]

A man who doesn't listen to his wife and include her in the journey they are both on is acting very foolishly. My wife follows my lead in the home. But, I have learned the hard way that I am not the only one who God speaks to in the marriage. She has followed me but a few times under protest telling me that my lead was not right and I did not listen. She followed but it cost both of us. While she submissively allows me the final say, I am learning to listen to her more closely for through her voice the voice of God may be speaking.

 

[go2church]

"but I have the final say" - really, how often does a final say situation come up?It just sounds like empty rhetoric to me. What kind of husband will force his wife to do something she doesn't want to do? What kind of wife will do something she doesn't think is right just because her husband said so? That doesn't sound or look like Jesus at all.

My experience is that men who need to have the final say are the ones that are the most insecure.

I love how men find the wives submit to husbands verse and somehow miss the submit to everyone verse right before it. Ephesians 5:21

 

[Revmitchell]

"but I have the final say" - really, how often does a final say situation come up?It just sounds like empty rhetoric to me. What kind of husband will force his wife to do something she doesn't want to do? What kind of wife will do something she doesn't think is right just because her husband said so? That doesn't sound or look like Jesus at all.

My experience is that men who need to have the final say are the ones that are the most insecure.

I love how men find the wives submit to husbands verse and somehow miss the submit to everyone verse right before it. Ephesians 5:21

You seem to be making a whole lot of assumptions here.

 

[go2church]

I don't seem to be, I am absolutely making assumptions.

Are there really final say situations?

Does it look like the arrangement Jesus spoke of to make someone do what they don't think is right to do and don't want to?

Why no mention of Ephesians 5:21?

Why do some men SOOOO need to be in charge, when in fact that isn't the example of Jesus whatsoever?

 

[Revmitchell]

I don't seem to be, I am absolutely making assumptions.

Well there ya go.

Are there really final say situations?

Yes from time to time.

Why no mention of Ephesians 5:21?

Because that is not directed at the marriage relationship.

Why do some men SOOOO need to be in charge, when in fact that isn't the example of Jesus whatsoever?

Actually it is, and the only "need' is to follow scripture.

 

[abcgrad94]

If you in any way actually think that a marriage is in any way fitting of the analogy of a brain sturgeon and a patient...(i.e. you, the expert trained doctor, as the husband, and your wife, the uneducated needy patient), then I honestly feel sorry for your spouse. I cannot think of a single time in my marriage that approaching my wife as the "expert know-it-all" would be healthy. Sorry, maybe that is not the way you meant it, but its the way it sounds to me coming from someone who I know has a very 'strong' personality like yourself.

Biblical authority comes from serving and loving, not from ruling, dictating or a I'm 'calling the shots' attitude.

Exactly. Men are to love their wives the way Christ loved the church. Having a know-it-all "I'm the boss" attitude" is not what Christ demonstrated.

I find it interesting that men with this arrogant, dictator-like attitude always emphasize wives submitting first. Christ loved us FIRST, not the other way around. A man who loves his wife like Jesus loves the church will not even need to mention submission to her--let alone worry about what other women are doing.

 

[go2church]

Ephesians 5:21 is the start of the paragraph where submission in marriage is discussed, how could it not be directed at the marriage relationship?

What was Jesus in charge of again where he was exercising his final say authority?

You think it honors God to make someone do what they don't want to?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Ephesians 5:21 is the start of the paragraph where submission in marriage is discussed, how could it not be directed at the marriage relationship?

Actually, it is at the end of the previous paragraph. Nonetheless, it can't entirely be separated from the marital relationship, as it is to be assumed both husband and wife are believers, to which that previous paragraph is addressed.

 

[Luke2427]

"but I have the final say" - really, how often does a final say situation come up?It just sounds like empty rhetoric to me. What kind of husband will force his wife to do something she doesn't want to do? What kind of wife will do something she doesn't think is right just because her husband said so? That doesn't sound or look like Jesus at all.

My experience is that men who need to have the final say are the ones that are the most insecure.

I love how men find the wives submit to husbands verse and somehow miss the submit to everyone verse right before it. Ephesians 5:21

That's because the verse above ties to the verses above it which are about relationships in the church. Verse 22 shifts the conversation to relationships in the home.

 

[Skandelon]

It seems like everyone is talking past each other to some degree. I don't think anyone is saying that a man shouldn't lead the home. At least I'm not. I'm saying a man shouldn't rule the home. He most certainly should lead it. The question is how does one lead as Christ did?

He served. He submitted himself even to death on a cross. He wanted the cup to pass from him, but submitted his own desires for the sake of his bride. He submitted so much that he LET them drive nails into his hands. What more submissive thing can a person do than lay down their own lives!?!

The greatest leaders are those who are the greatest at submission. To call someone to submission is to call them to greatness. Once you see submission and servanthood as 'GREAT' it turns this discussion up on its head, because then its not about who is in charge, or who is calling the shots...it is about who is serving the other. Who is willingly giving up their own rights, desires, and wants to help the other? That is the greatest leader. Too often the wife is the greatest in the marriage relationship because she is the best servant, the best submitter, the best lover of the two. That was true in my marriage for years, but now I give my wife a run for her money at serving and loving her as I should have been doing from the beginning. In my pride and arrogance I actually used to think leading was taking charge and making decision while she took care of me. I could not have been more wrong and it almost cost me my marriage. After being broken...I mean really broken God began to teach me what love really looks like...what leadership really looks like....and what a real man really is.

 

[saturneptune]

It seems like everyone is talking past each other to some degree. I don't think anyone is saying that a man shouldn't lead the home. At least I'm not. I'm saying a man shouldn't rule the home. He most certainly should lead it. The question is how does one lead as Christ did?

He served. He submitted himself even to death on a cross. He wanted the cup to pass from him, but submitted his own desires for the sake of his bride. He submitted so much that he LET them drive nails into his hands. What more submissive thing can a person do than lay down their own lives!?!

The greatest leaders are those who are the greatest at submission. To call someone to submission is to call them to greatness. Once you see submission and servanthood as 'GREAT' it turns this discussion up on its head, because then its not about who is in charge, or who is calling the shots...it is about who is serving the other. Who is willingly giving up their own rights, desires, and wants to help the other? That is the greatest leader. Too often the wife is the greatest in the marriage relationship because she is the best servant, the best submitter, the best lover of the two. That was true in my marriage for years, but now I give my wife a run for her money at serving and loving her as I should have been doing from the beginning. In my pride and arrogance I actually used to think leading was taking charge and making decision while she took care of me. I could not have been more wrong and it almost cost me my marriage. After being broken...I mean really broken God began to teach me what love really looks like...what leadership really looks like....and what a real man really is.

That is an excellent statement of a picture between a man and a wife. In a spiritual since, being a leader means being a servant which goes against the world view. A man is not a dictator of a home, he is a leader. The reason women take leadership roles, not only in the home, but in the local church, is because so many men have abandoned their responsibilities of leadership in both places, either because the men are not present or fail to act like a leader within the home or church.

Jesus Christ never gave the example of being a tyrant or mean to His followers. He told us to love one another as He loved us. Being leader of the house in a spiritual sense does not excuse or mean the husband can hit his wife, demean her verbally, or disrespect her. Those are not the virtues of a Christian man. Men, if a wife is taking a leadership role at home, or a position in the church usually given to men, it is because you failed to fulfill your responsibilities.

Skan, it is actually a pleasure to respond to a post of yours in agreement.

 

[Winman]

If you in any way actually think that a marriage is in any way fitting of the analogy of a brain sturgeon and a patient...(i.e. you, the expert trained doctor, as the husband, and your wife, the uneducated needy patient), then I honestly feel sorry for your spouse. I cannot think of a single time in my marriage that approaching my wife as the "expert know-it-all" would be healthy. Sorry, maybe that is not the way you meant it, but its the way it sounds to me coming from someone who I know has a very 'strong' personality like yourself.

Biblical authority comes from serving and loving, not from ruling, dictating or a I'm 'calling the shots' attitude.

He treats everyone else like they are an idiot, why would she be any different?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

He treats everyone else like they are an idiot, why would she be any different?

Sounds like he runs his marriage like he runs his church, in which case I don't envy either.