Man Is Totally Depraved

[Primitive Baptist]

Even Calvinists would say that a person must confess and believe (they just say it happens after regeneration).

Primitive Baptists are not Calvinists.

We do? Such as what? I don't think you know this side as well as you think you do.

I think I know the Arminian position too well because I attended an Arminian church my whole life until last year. Arminians believe one must:

1. Believe
2. Repent
3. Confess
4. Call on the name of the Lord

And list goes on and on for the different branches. There are NO conditions for eternal salvation.

The Holy Spirit dwelt in John the Baptist before his birth.

This clearly refutes your whole position. Jesus said, "...so is every one that is born of the Spirit. " (John 3:8) If beliving is a condition for one to be born again, it is a condition for all. HAVE YOU FOUND THE UNANSWERED POST I WAS REFERRING TO?

 

[Ray Berrian]

John Gill is apparently a good scholar.

I have noticed as always that most difficult passages to interpret most commentators have little to say about them. I check my references and found little on this verse.

Dr. James Strong in his concordance says that {photizo} means 'to shed rays, to shine, to brighten up, enlighten, illuminate, to bring to or give light or to make to see.'

God said that Jesus was the true Light and that He lighteth every man coming into the world. To me this sounds like a positive thing. I believe He means that human beings are born with an innate sense of a Divine Being. They are born with a conscience though this inner guide can be seared. I believe this means that every human being has been given by God some degree of mental acumen or intellect. Human beings are also given human freedom that we call a will in which to listen and respond or to reject His call to eternal life. This light that has been invested in us is a beacon that draws other spiritual issues and truth toward us before we are saved. It is understandable that God Who is the true Light wants His creation of people to enjoy some rays of light coming from Him so that we have a base of understanding of His Word, the Bible. We were created originally through Adam and Eve before the Fall and after the Flood ' . . . in the image of God' [Genesis 9:6 & James 3:9d] plus we have been invested with the Light coming from God Himself [John 1:9].

We were in a struggle before we were saved and also after we were adopted into the family of God. Yes, we were depraved and will always have remnants of depravity until the Lord takes us in death or at His appearing for His people. And yet we are no so depraved that we do not have this inner light, given by God and the blessing of being created after His likeness. The Bible teaches both truths. The question is are we willing to accept what He has said in His Word.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
We were in a struggle before we were saved and also after we were adopted into the family of God. Yes, we were depraved and will always have remnants of depravity until the Lord takes us in death or at His appearing for His people. And yet we are no so depraved that we do not have this inner light, given by God and the blessing of being created after His likeness. The Bible teaches both truths. The question is are we willing to accept what He has said in His Word.

Absolutely, Ray. That is what is taught in Romans chapter 1. And I accept God's
Word.

Ken
The Happy Calvinist

[ July 20, 2002, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Primitive Baptist:
HAVE YOU FOUND THE UNANSWERED POST I WAS REFERRING TO?

You must not think much of it if you keep evading it so. What is the question you have? (Shouting doesn't make you heard any more than when you type normally.)

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Primitive Baptist:
This clearly refutes your whole position. Jesus said, "...so is every one that is born of the Spirit. " (John 3:8) If beliving is a condition for one to be born again, it is a condition for all.

No it doesn't. Matthew clearly shows how this is a special and unique condition.

 

[Primitive Baptist]

The post I am referring to is the fifth post in this thread. Where does Matthew treat the case of infants as a "unique" case?

 

[Ray Berrian]

All babies who die are welcomed into the Presence of God. King David said about his dead son, in effect, 'He cannot come to me; but I will go to be with him.' God has created us in His image. Would you send a pre-adult to everlasting destruction even knowing his or her human depravity?

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Primitive Baptist:
The natural man can't "just believe." Arminians think it's so simple, but it's not. Jesus never taught it. As a matter of fact, He taught quite the opposite!

"But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not." (John 6:36)

Why didn't they believe? Was it because they just chose not to believe? No!

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." (John 6:37)

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." (John 6:44, 45)

It's just not as simple as you'd like it to be.

"But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him." (John 6:64)

Again, was it because they just chose not to believe? No!

"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." (John 6:65)

That's what the Bible has to say about the subject, and "let God be true, but every man a liar." (Rom. 3:4) I'm tolerant towards the beliefs of others until they cross a certain line, and anybody who would say any differently than what Jesus just said is a liar. I didn't call you a liar; God's word called you a liar.

Read Grant Osborne's "Soteriology in the Gospel of John" in the book "Grace of God, Will of Man." He answers any and all questions you have. That's the most concise way to answer what you consider "unanswerable."

 

[Primitive Baptist]

Ray, where Scripture doesn't speak, I don't speak. PERIOD. What you posted is your OPINION. I have ten-thousand of them, but our opinions don't equal God's truth. That's just not how it is.

Scott, the only book I need to read is God's book. All the answers I need are in that book. I heard Elder Sonny Pyles say one time, "Theologians are people who study more and more about less and less until they know everything there is to know about nothing." If the answer you want me to read is in some book and not in God's word, it's not worth reading.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
"But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong." What do you mean here? KJV, NASB, NIV, ASV, even the NLV. All of them have "things."

My point is that Paul is talking about people. I am not arguing with the translation. But Paul is talking about people who were not wise, mighty, or noble when they were called. You cannot remove it from that context. I think you are missing the point of the context.

The context is illustrating that God does not saved people in the way that man thinks he should. A crucified Messiah was a contradiction in terms. It was a stumblingblock to the Jews who were looking for a Messiah. Yet God chose that method. It was not based on ability or class; it was based on God. That is the point of the foolish things, etc. Again, my point is not that "things" is improper. It is that it must be understood in the context of what Paul is arguing for.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Primitive Baptist:
Scott, the only book I need to read is God's book. All the answers I need are in that book. I heard Elder Sonny Pyles say one time, "Theologians are people who study more and more about less and less until they know everything there is to know about nothing." If the answer you want me to read is in some book and not in God's word, it's not worth reading.[/QB]

So you're saying you rely on only the BIble, and then you post what an ordinary man says. And this is the logic we're supposed to answer to?

The article discusses John's soteriology and answers with Scripture what you are asking. YOu are welcome to read it, or not read it, but don't claim your argument hasn't been refuted then.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Primitive Baptist,

Let me guess that Elder Sonny Pyles is a home grown boy who probably has a high school education and probably got the approval of the local congregation to get a 'Preacher's License.'
His limited understanding is quite evident. I am sure he has a lot of true and Biblical things to preach about but probably needs esposure to the entire theological field of understanding.

Reading both sides of a theological view is helpful and will not endanger your faith. You cannot know you are right unless you review and study the other side of the issues.

Just take what I have said as merely one Christian man's opinion. No hurt intended!

 

[Primitive Baptist]

I was raised and attended Arminian churches my whole life until recently, so I completely know the other side of the issue. I actually taught (God forbid) the Arminian side of the debate. Elder Sonny Pyles also grew up in a denominational church, so he is also well acquainted with your lacking arguments. Instead of answering my inquiries, you point me to some book other than the word of God. You then have the nerve to call my approach not logical. As far as the personal attacks are concerned, am I supposed to take you seriously? I mean, it's coming from someone who teaches we accept Christ instead of Him accepting us. Where is your logic? I mean, if you'd only read the word of God for what it says instead of what you think it should say, you'd come to the same conclusion; no doubt. Are you against independent congregations? I'm sorry you needed a seminary to get you to where Sonny Pyles is.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Let me guess that Elder Sonny Pyles is a home grown boy who probably has a high school education and probably got the approval of the local congregation to get a 'Preacher's License.'
His limited understanding is quite evident. I am sure he has a lot of true and Biblical things to preach about but probably needs esposure to the entire theological field of understanding.

Reading both sides of a theological view is helpful and will not endanger your faith. You cannot know you are right unless you review and study the other side of the issues.

Ray, I am not sure you have a lot of room to talk here. You have repeatedly shown yourself to have a limited understanding and furthermore to be unwilling to read enough to find out more. However, since Sonny Pyles is not here to defend himself (to my knowledge) it would be better to refrain from these statements.

 

[absturzen]

All babies who die are welcomed into the Presence of God. King David said about his dead son, in effect, 'He cannot come to me; but I will go to be with him.' God has created us in His image. Would you send a pre-adult to everlasting destruction even knowing his or her human depravity?

The 2 Sam 12:23 verse is telling what King David said. This may not necessarily be declaration of God but rather simply quoting David.

"But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

If we look at 2 Kings 18:27; I think everyone here would say this is quote of Rab-shakeh and not a declaration from God.

Now, I know one would say, "What about Psalms? It was written by David." This is a very good point but Psalms is not a history book.

I think David's statement is probably true just as he said it. But from this verse, all I do know is that David said it.

I personally think that those that die in infancy are elect and are saved. That’s my opinion.

If we can't say "Thus saith the Lord" then we must state it as an opinion. Of course, there are many verses that gives this opinion some merit (Gen 18:25 is a good example).

But we don’t have the authority to state it as a fact.

What we do KNOW is that all that are elect that die in infancy are saved. Because that is His decree that He will not lose one. That we do have the authority to say as fact.

Just my two cents

Stevie

[ July 22, 2002, 01:56 AM: Message edited by: absturzen ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

Primitive Baptist,

I was studying 'deep theology'/ the Word of God as early as twelve years old. I had no idea there was so much error out there in the Christian world. Moreover, I was grounded in the Word before I ever entered a Bible college.

Don't be afraid to read what other good men have to say about God. Each of these men have studied the Bible as thoroughly as you and me.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Pastor Larry,

I thought Primitive Baptist would willingly, defend his Elder.

Respectfully, to my two brothers in the faith,

Dr. Berrian

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ezekiel 33:11f offers up to us from God Himself a declaration that the sinner need not wait until he is saved in order to turn from his sins. ' . . . turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O House of Israel?' Man is not so depraved that he or she cannot walk away from their sins, God being their Helper. Augustine/Calvin apparently got it wrong. If the Bible is true, and it is, then Ezekiel's prophecy was spoken and in accord with the Triune Godhead.

Augustine/Calvin tell us that God only died for His elect. Ezekiel tells us that God wishes that all human beings would be saved. [Ezekiel 33:11 & I Timothy 2:4] ' . . . who wishes all men to be saved . . . ' Can you imagine, under both of His covenants He desires that no one should go to Hell. This kind of annihiliates the Calvinists view that somehow God can get great, glory out of damning all those lost souls. I would, however, say that when He sends the lost to Hell, He will be portraying the fairness and impartiality of His justice.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Pastor Larry,

I thought Primitive Baptist would willingly, defend his Elder.

Respectfully, to my two brothers in the faith,

Dr. Berrian

Ray:

Elder Sonny Pyles can speak best for himself and does not need any of the brethren's defense. You may think him simply a high school graduate with no doctorate title like you have, no offense intended, but, lest we forget, Peter, John, and Mark were also lacking the same degree and title attached to their names like Gamaliel but it is said of them that "they have turned the world upside down".

 

[Ray Berrian]

Pastor Larry,

I agree that Peter, James, and John were not as educated as the Apostle Paul.