Man reconciled to God or God to man?

[WAJungleMonkey]

Calvin says, "But before we proceed farther, we must see in passing, how can it be said that God, who prevents us with his mercy, was our enemy until he was reconciled to us by Christ." (Institutes; Book 2, 16.2)

Would you see any difference between saying, "we are reconciled to God" (as the Bible phrases it in every place) and saying, "God is reconciled to us" (as Calvin states it)? Do you think Calvin misspoke? That his phrasing makes it sound like God is the one with the relationship problem and He needs to be reconciled to us rather than us to Him?

I understand Calvin was recognizing God's wrath, as being spoken of in the Bible, is in human terms because of our human weakness to understand -- not that God actually hates us (because after all, God sent His Son)... but I am just talking about the above phrase specifically. Should Calvin have phrased that differently?
Reading it alone without understanding Calvin's apparent intent makes it sound heretical to me... which is obviously why we shouldn't read anything out of context, no matter who wrote it... and obviously the Institutes are not infallible... but that's beside the point... Is this just a nonsense thread of idle conversation? LOL!

 

[Van]

Those that are separated from God due to unholiness (humanity at conception) are the ones being reconciled. We are separated from God, and when God chooses to place us individually into Christ, where we undergo the washing of regeneration, and are thus made alive "together with Christ." Thus, the individual's status is changed, and therefore the individual is reconciled to God. We join Him, not the other way around...

 

[kyredneck]

Calvin says,...God...was our enemy until he was reconciled to us by Christ." (Institutes; Book 2, 16.2)

I've respect for Calvin, this just may be a poor choice of words on his part. The law was our enemy, and God abolished the law.

Would you see any difference between saying, "we are reconciled to God" (as the Bible phrases it in every place) and saying, "God is reconciled to us" (as Calvin states it)?

18 But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave unto us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 We are ambassadors therefore on behalf of Christ, as though God were entreating by us: we beseech you on behalf of Christ, be ye reconciled to God. 2 Cor 5

..i.e., You have been reconciled, be ye therefore reconciled to God.

...in the same vein as: If we live by the Spirit, by the Spirit let us also walk. Gal 5:25

 

[WAJungleMonkey]

Those that are separated from God due to unholiness (humanity at conception) are the ones being reconciled. We are separated from God, and when God chooses to place us individually into Christ, where we undergo the washing of regeneration, and are thus made alive "together with Christ." Thus, the individual's status is changed, and therefore the individual is reconciled to God. We join Him, not the other way around...

Right. That is my understanding... and I think that was the point Calvin was trying to get to in the context of his writing, but definitely sounds messed up the way he put it.

 

[canadyjd]

Right. That is my understanding... and I think that was the point Calvin was trying to get to in the context of his writing, but definitely sounds messed up the way he put it.

I haven’t read much of Calvin. I do think 500 years of cultural separation between us and him may have a role here in determining what he meant.

I really don’t think he was putting the focus on mankind. His focus is on God. His focus, it seems, is how God’s righteous judgment is satisfied by Christ, which allows God to be reconciled.

Our modern day focus is on mankind; what mankind does, how we exercise faith, when are we saved, can we lose salvation,…. etc.

Less often are we focused solely on God; on God’s will, on God’s choices, on God’s relationship with us from His perspective.

I think Calvin was attempting to explain reconciliation from God’s perspective, not ours.

Bur, like I said, I haven’t studied him much.

peace to you

 

[WAJungleMonkey]

I think Calvin was attempting to explain reconciliation from God’s perspective, not ours.

I hear what you're saying... Calvin explained this further... that the concepts of "wrath of God" are only used to help us understand God's justice in our own human weakness and inability to understand Him... not that God is actually wrathful or eternally "ticked off" at everyone for breaking a random list of commands... or that He's so emotionally unstable that He could snap at any moment.... and Jesus is the "duck tape" holding it all together.... Lol!

 

[WAJungleMonkey]

I've respect for Calvin, this just may be a poor choice of words on his part. The law was our enemy, and God abolished the law.

I wouldn't say the Law is our enemy, only inasmuch as we don't want to obey it. Satan and his allies are our only real enemies. The only laws that were abolished at Christ's fulfilling of them were the laws related to the sacrificial system... but the rest of it still stands.

 

[kyredneck]

I wouldn't say the Law is our enemy, only inasmuch as we don't want to obey it. Satan and his allies are our only real enemies. The only laws that were abolished at Christ's fulfilling of them were the laws related to the sacrificial system... but the rest of it still stands.

???

14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace;
16 and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Eph 2

13 And you, being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, you, I say, did he make alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses;
14 having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross;
15 having despoiled the principalities and the powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Col 2

 

[WAJungleMonkey]

???

14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace;
16 and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Eph 2

13 And you, being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, you, I say, did he make alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses;
14 having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross;
15 having despoiled the principalities and the powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Col 2

I knew you were going to go there "commandments contained in ordinances" is talking about circumcision of the flesh, "the middle wall of separation" which separated Jews from Gentiles. Obviously we are not required to circumcise ourselves anymore because Christ fulfilled that. But the New Covenant circumcision is one of the heart. Christ's blood satisfies the requirements of the Law, but we must participate in the work God is doing in us to be conformed to His image... and we will, if we are trusting in Christ to save us.

 

[kyredneck]

I knew you were going to go there "commandments contained in ordinances" is talking about circumcision of the flesh, "the middle wall of separation" which separated Jews from Gentiles. Obviously we are not required to circumcise ourselves anymore because Christ fulfilled that. But the New Covenant circumcision is one of the heart. Christ's blood satisfies the requirements of the Law, but we must participate in the work God is doing in us to be conformed to His image... and we will, if we are trusting in Christ to save us.

What you've written here amounts to nothing short of placing Christianity under the yoke of the law, short of physical circumcision. Hogwash.

Are you Jewish?

 

[WAJungleMonkey]

What you've written here amounts to nothing short of placing Christianity under the yoke of the law, short of physical circumcision. Hogwash.

Are you Jewish?

Peace be with you.