manifestation vs gift

[DHK]

No, I found a deeper relationship! More hunger for my Lord than ever before! So...I do not think satan would lead me into a deeper walk with God.

I did not attend any meetings, no one took me aside and explained these truths to me. I went in search to defend what I was brought up to believe. But when I got into the word...I found what I am sharing now! ONce I saw it for myself, I repented of my unbelief and asked God to help me!


Well, we have hashed it out over and over...and I just do not see it the same as you do!

Read the testimonies of Charles Taze Russel, and Joseph Smith. You might find some striking similarities in their testimonies.

 

[awaken]

Read the testimonies of Charles Taze Russel, and Joseph Smith. You might find some striking similarities in their testimonies.

So now you are telling me my testimony is fake?

 

[awaken]

1. Praying in the spirit is not praying in tongues.

Then you just called Paul a liar...1 Cor. 12-15 says it is!

2. Praying to God is always with understanding.

Then why does he tell us to pray for interpretation if we understand?

3. Paul condemns praying in tongues and praying without understanding.

Does this sound like condemnation..."I thank my God I speak with tongues more than ye all"..."Forbid not to speak with tongues"

4. The only time Paul permits praying in tongues was in a local church and with interpretation. That is the only time he permitted it.

So now it is praying in tongues? Well it least you had half of your statement right! No where does Paul forbid prayer outside the local church!

5. There is no such thing taught in Scripture as a private prayer language. It is condemned in Scripture, and cannot be supported by Scripture.

YOu just said it was prayer in #4..you seemed to be a little confused. Again where in the Word does it say you can not pray outside the church and in private. I pray in private more than I pray in public!

--See if you can refute these point by point.
On the day of Pentecost they spoke in other languages.

never denied that! I have always said tongues was a language.

On the day of Pentecost the entire crowd heard in the language in which they were born, their mother tongue.
They were real languages, understood by the people that they were speaking to.

They were real languages understood by the multitude, yes!

In Acts 2 they needed no interpreters, because the entire audience were Jews. It was a Jewish Feast, held at the Temple, where the Jews had come to gather.

They were all Jews...the disciples and the crowd. I do not see where anyone had to interpret.

In Corinth time had passed (about 25 years now).

Not sure how you came up with 25 years...can you share how you come up with that?

Tongues were a gift for the church, for edification of the church, much like prophecy was.

The manifestation of the Spirit is given to profit withal...it was also to build up the believer himself (1 Cor. 14:4)

But it was still a sign for the Jews. That sign had not passed (1Cor.14:21). It was also beneficial for those whose mother tongue was not the common language of the day. All could understand Greek. All Jews could understand Greek and their own language Hebrew. But if there were visitors there from (for example Spain), then Paul would speak in Spanish. It would be interpreted back into Greek for all to understand. Because the message of God was spoken by a person from another nation, in a language of another nation it was a sign to the Jews that were there that if they did not repent judgment would come. The tongues had both purposes--to give revelation, to give understanding, to give a sign to the Jews. Some of the Jews present may have been unsaved.

The sign to the unbeliever was that it was of God. THe unbelieving Jews on the Day of Pentecost were amazed and said.."What meaneth this?" Peter stood up and explained what it meant..."I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh"

Word of knowledge is a phrase used one time in the Bible, found in 1Cor.12:7 and you take it upon yourself to be the one authority that can define it in the face of 1900 centuries of Christian scholarship. Let me say with all authority that your definition is wrong. "Word of knowledge" has also to do with revelation. It does not mean to exhort, encourage, edify and comfort. It has nothing to do with those things, and you can't prove that it does. The context dictates otherwise. All you have given is opinion, and it is a pretty lame one at that.

With your authority...what do you say a word of knowledge is? Give me examples of how it is demonstrated in the Bible!

An impression on one's heart is not a word of knowledge.

So now you are saying that His Spirit does not talk to our spirit?

Yes, practicing levitation is the occult. It is condemned in the Bible. We wouldn't want you suspended in the air for any length of time would we? :smilewinkgrin:

Getting desperate to prove your theories...because you always bring this nonsense in when you are!

Perhaps. But it was not a word of knowledge. God leads in different ways. But it was not a word of knowledge.

So now you are limiting God and how He leads people?

Because a person can give you good advice does not mean that he has the gift of "word of wisdom." That was not a "word of wisdom." He gave you good advice. Truthfully an unsaved person could have done that unless it was spiritual advice given. Even then it was not a word of wisdom.

you don't get it do you! The message I got was from a person that knew nothing about what I was going through personally. The only way that person would have know what I needed in that circumstance...God had to tell them. THAT IS A WORD FROM THE LORD GIVEN TO A BELIEVER FOR ANOTHER BELIEVER.

moot.
red herring.
The cults quote scripture out of context.
It has nothing to do with what you were saying.

I will address this in another post...

 

[DHK]

So now you are telling me my testimony is fake?

Basically the Charismatic movement is a movement that wants something more than just faith. They are tired of just listening to the same old truths of the Bible, 20-50 years of the same thing. Maybe their spiritual walk with God has gone dead. Or maybe their are looking for a new experience. Who knows the real motivation.
But what they are actually looking for is something tangible; something that they can hang their hat on; a real experience. That is where tongues comes in. It gives this emotional high, a euphoria that they claim is from the Holy Spirit but they are deceived for it has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit, and nothing to do with any kind of languages whatsoever. It is simply an emotional high.
In some cases it is demon possession, or oppression depending on whether or not the person is saved.

When one reads the testimonies of various cult leaders, they were fed up with the teachings of mainline denominations--often Presbyterian or Baptist. They were looking for something new. Some made up their own theology, something different, something different, and began to attract followers. Of course this is what happened in 1905 with the Kansas City Prophets and other early day Faith Healers and tongue-speakers. It is where and when the movement started. It wasn't known before that time.

One of the early Faith Healers of the movement was William Branham (1909-1965). Supposedly electricity flowed through his hands as he healed others. He attracted quite a following. He believed that original sin was a result of a sexual union between the serpent and Eve, denied the trinity, denominationalism is the Mark of the Beast, and other odd beliefs. His followers today gather in small groups and listen to tapes of his sermons. This is where the Charismatic movement, in part, originated from. Look well to your roots!!

 

[plain_n_simple]

Do you heal the sick DHK?

How many attempts?

 

[DHK]

Then you just called Paul a liar...1 Cor. 12-15 says it is!

No. I pray "in the Spirit" often, but never in tongues. They are not the same. Furthermore Paul condemns all praying that is without understanding. I always know what I am praying about. You don't.

Then why does he tell us to pray for interpretation if we understand?

He didn't. He commanded that if one was praying in public in the church in another language, he had to have an interpreter. Otherwise how would the people know when to say "Amen."
He never advocates for any person to pray privately in an unknown language.

Does this sound like condemnation..."I thank my God I speak with tongues more than ye all"

Paul went on 3 missionary journey and established over 100 churches in Asia minor and in Europe. Those nations had different languages. God gave him the use of languages for a vehicle of revelation, for authentication that he was an apostle, as a sign to the Jew, all of which we don't have or need for this day.

..."Forbid not to speak with tongues"

In the first century, is the context.

So now it is praying in tongues? Well it least you had half of your statement right! No where does Paul forbid prayer outside the local church!

Paul forbids praying in tongues outside of the local church for it is a gift given to the local church to be used in the local church, and it always needed an interpreter. If you didn't have an interpreter you were to shut up and keep quiet.

YOu just said it was prayer in #4..you seemed to be a little confused.

Public prayer in the local church. You don't remember the verse "Or how shall they know when to say "Amen." It had to be interpreted.

Again where in the Word does it say you can not pray outside the church and in private. I pray in private more than I pray in public!

Pray in private, but not in other languages. Why would you do that? What languages do you pray in? Cree? Maori? Hindi? Creole? What languages do you pray in? A tongue is a language, and if you don't know then you are deceived.
James 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
--Elijah prayed in his own language so that all could understand him.
I am sure he had more of the Spirit than you do.

never denied that! I have always said tongues was a language.

Then what are the languages that you speak in?[/quote]

They were real languages understood by the multitude, yes!

They were all Jews...the disciples and the crowd. I do not see where anyone had to interpret.

Not sure how you came up with 25 years...can you share how you come up with that?

Christ was crucified ca. 29 A.D. Pentecost was no later than 30 A.D. if not in 29. Paul's letter to the Corinthians was in 55 A.D.

The manifestation of the Spirit is given to profit withal...it was also to build up the believer himself (1 Cor. 14:4)

No it wasn't. You misinterpret this verse every time.

1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
1 Corinthians 14:4 He who speaks in another language edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the assembly. (WEB)
It is a rebuke. The gift is not just to edify yourself; it is to edify the entire assembly, therefore do not speak in other languages but rather prophesy. That is the message there. You cannot take permission from a rebuke.

The sign to the unbeliever was that it was of God. THe unbelieving Jews on the Day of Pentecost were amazed and said.."What meaneth this?" Peter stood up and explained what it meant..."I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh"

You are quoting only a part of the prophecy.
The Spirit was not poured out on all flesh, not even in the first century. If it was then over 100,000 would have been saved, and not just 3,000.
If it was they would not have been calling the disciples drunk. That is not a result of the outpouring of the Spirit on all flesh.
If it was then all would be saved today; but they are not.
Your interpretation does not fit the context.

With your authority...what do you say a word of knowledge is? Give me examples of how it is demonstrated in the Bible!

The phrase is only used once in the Bible, and is used as a gift of the Spirit, and as a revelatory gift. It would be God revealing special knowledge yet unknown to NT believers because the NT is not yet complete.

So now you are saying that His Spirit does not talk to our spirit?

No, I said your definition of "word of knowledge" is wrong. Why are you accusing me of things I never said?

Getting desperate to prove your theories...because you always bring this nonsense in when you are!

I wasn't desperate at all. But if you didn't understand what I said, that is ok. Just leave it.

So now you are limiting God and how He leads people?

No, I am correcting your definition of the "word of knowledge."
What makes you the authority on Biblical terminology and gives you the authority to change it after 20 centuries of standard usage. That is what cults do--change the meanings of words.

you don't get it do you! The message I got was from a person that knew nothing about what I was going through personally. The only way that person would have know what I needed in that circumstance...God had to tell them. THAT IS A WORD FROM THE LORD GIVEN TO A BELIEVER FOR ANOTHER BELIEVER.

And so??
That doesn't mean it was one of the gifts of the Spirit. It doesn't make them operational. God uses different people in different ways.

 

[DHK]

Do you heal the sick DHK?

How many attempts?

No, brother. God heals the sick. He heals as many as are in his will to heal.

 

[plain_n_simple]

No, brother. God heals the sick. He heals as many as are in his will to heal.

I am asking how many you have layed hands on and prayed, then recovered?

 

[John of Japan]

Read the testimonies of Charles Taze Russel, and Joseph Smith. You might find some striking similarities in their testimonies.

Here is an interesting testimony by a person who went from a tongues-speaking church (a practice which both awed and disgusted him) to atheism and then back to Christianity: http://knowitstrue.com/an-extra-biblical-examination-on-the-gift-of-tongues/

He points out that "Gnostic, Coptic, Hindu, pagan, shaman, and Sufi (a type of Islam) have been all known or have been reported to practice ecstatic utterances." So even the Sufi Muslim mystics apparently speak in tongues!

 

[awaken]

Basically the Charismatic movement is a movement that wants something more than just faith. They are tired of just listening to the same old truths of the Bible, 20-50 years of the same thing. Maybe their spiritual walk with God has gone dead. Or maybe their are looking for a new experience. Who knows the real motivation.
But what they are actually looking for is something tangible; something that they can hang their hat on; a real experience. That is where tongues comes in. It gives this emotional high, a euphoria that they claim is from the Holy Spirit but they are deceived for it has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit, and nothing to do with any kind of languages whatsoever. It is simply an emotional high.
In some cases it is demon possession, or oppression depending on whether or not the person is saved.

When one reads the testimonies of various cult leaders, they were fed up with the teachings of mainline denominations--often Presbyterian or Baptist. They were looking for something new. Some made up their own theology, something different, something different, and began to attract followers. Of course this is what happened in 1905 with the Kansas City Prophets and other early day Faith Healers and tongue-speakers. It is where and when the movement started. It wasn't known before that time.

One of the early Faith Healers of the movement was William Branham (1909-1965). Supposedly electricity flowed through his hands as he healed others. He attracted quite a following. He believed that original sin was a result of a sexual union between the serpent and Eve, denied the trinity, denominationalism is the Mark of the Beast, and other odd beliefs. His followers today gather in small groups and listen to tapes of his sermons. This is where the Charismatic movement, in part, originated from. Look well to your roots!!

You are lumping a lot into what I believe that I have never said I believe. Would you like me to start accusing you of all the weird things Baptist have rolled off in.

Yes! I believe in the Holy Spirit! I believe He was poured out on the Day of Pentecost as Promised by Jesus for the church and until the church is complete! I believe that He manifest Himself just like the Bible says he can! He came to do a work through the church and will finish that work!

 

[John of Japan]

You are lumping a lot into what I believe that I have never said I believe. Would you like me to start accusing you of all the weird things Baptist have rolled off in.

But that is where your theology came from. You said you started thinking about Charismatic doctrines when you wanted to defend your own doctrine. And all along on the BB, your doctrines have dovetailed with major Charismatic doctrines. So you have linked yourself inextricably with the heretics of the Charismatic movement. And you have so far refused to condemn any Charismatic doctrine or practice, just said that you disagree. That you are ignorant of the roots of the movement doesn't change that.

As for us Baptists, I defy you to find any Baptist doctrine anywhere near as heretical as the Charismatic heresies DHK and I have delineated. What Baptists have ever said we are incarnations of God just like Christ is? And once again, that is a doctrine you refuse to oppose. Just disagreeing with such an egregious heresy doesn't cut it.

If you would simply condemn Charismatic doctrine I would like link you rather with the old line Pentecostals rather than the Charismatics. But you refuse to condemn terrible heresy.

 

[awaken]

No. I pray "in the Spirit" often, but never in tongues. They are not the same. Furthermore Paul condemns all praying that is without understanding. I always know what I am praying about. You don't.

"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, AND I will pray with the understanding also."
The AND shows two ways. Praying in the spirit is praying in tongues! How much plainer does Paul have to write. Do you think God likes you changing His word to fit your theory?

He didn't. He commanded that if one was praying in public in the church in another language, he had to have an interpreter. Otherwise how would the people know when to say "Amen."

No where does it say AN INTERPRETER. The Holy Spirit manifest the interpretation to the person supernaturally! You do not go to school to learn how to manifest the Holy Spirit. YOu are trying to give credit to man what God does through His church in a miraculous way. You think that brings Him glory? Or that God can do through man what man can not do without HIm bring Him Glory? Which one do you thing brings God more glory and which one brings man more glory? Think about it!!

He never advocates for any person to pray privately in an unknown language.

Every prayer can be prayed privately...including tongues!

Paul went on 3 missionary journey and established over 100 churches in Asia minor and in Europe. Those nations had different languages. God gave him the use of languages for a vehicle of revelation, for authentication that he was an apostle, as a sign to the Jew, all of which we don't have or need for this day.

Show me where it says that God gave him tongues for missionary work. There is no record in scripture where anyone used speaking in tongues to do missionary work.

In the first century, is the context.

YOu can not pick and chose to fit your theory! Tongues was a manifestation of the Holy Spirit for the church! THe church is still here!

Paul forbids praying in tongues outside of the local church for it is a gift given to the local church to be used in the local church, and it always needed an interpreter. If you didn't have an interpreter you were to shut up and keep quiet.

No where did he forbid tongues anywhere!! If you are going to pray in the spirit in church...then interprete it so others can be edified! That is the only thing he spoke against concerning tongues except the order to do it in verse 27,28. NOWHERE DOES HE FORBID praying privetly!!!

Public prayer in the local church. You don't remember the verse "Or how shall they know when to say "Amen." It had to be interpreted.

ANd I agee with Paul! In the church interpret it so others can be edified by your prayer. (verse 16,17) But NOWHERE DOES HE FORBID TO PRAY IN PRIVATE!

Pray in private, but not in other languages. Why would you do that? What languages do you pray in? Cree? Maori? Hindi? Creole? What languages do you pray in? A tongue is a language, and if you don't know then you are deceived.

No, I am not deceived...you are! Because satan has convinced you there is no benefit to praying in the spirit! Satan attacks this one manifestation more than any other...ever wonder why?

James 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
--Elijah prayed in his own language so that all could understand him.
I am sure he had more of the Spirit than you do.

Actually, Elijah did not have the indwelling Spirit, did he? Yes! God called him and used him in a mighty way! Have I ever said God called me to do the things his apostles have done? NO! I have said over and over I am not called to do certain ministries! But praying in the spirit is not just for the Great, mature christians!

Then what are the languages that you speak in?

Show me one verse where it says the one praying HAS to know the language he is speaking. YOu can not! But I can show you a scripture where it says that we don't...14:2 We speak to God not to man! No man understands us ...unless an interpretation is given...that is why Paul encouraged us to pray for the interpretation.

Christ was crucified ca. 29 A.D. Pentecost was no later than 30 A.D. if not in 29. Paul's letter to the Corinthians was in 55 A.D.

That does not prove when Acts was written...just when it happened.

No it wasn't. You misinterpret this verse every time.

1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
1 Corinthians 14:4 He who speaks in another language edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the assembly. (WEB)
It is a rebuke. The gift is not just to edify yourself; it is to edify the entire assembly, therefore do not speak in other languages but rather prophesy. That is the message there. You cannot take permission from a rebuke.

I agree it is not JUST to edify yourself..that is just one benefit! Jude confirms it in vs. 20!
Unless he forbids it you can not make your own man-made theories out of it! You have already admitted it is praying! So show me in scriptures where it forbids ANYONE to pray alone.

Do you study your Bible outside the church? Do you sing outside the church? Do you comfort others outside the church..etc. Get the picture? You are forbidding what God did not! NOWHERE IN SCRIPTURES DOES IT FORBID PRAYING TO EDIFY YOURSELF. Just like reading the Bible, singing etc. They all lift our spirits! THat is edifying yourself! THAT IS NOT FORBIDDEN! As a matter of fact it does edify the church! The stronger we are spiritually...the strong the body is as a whole!

You are quoting only a part of the prophecy.
The Spirit was not poured out on all flesh, not even in the first century. If it was then over 100,000 would have been saved, and not just 3,000.

It was poured out for all to receive...but we have a choice to receive it or reject it! It does not say they will all receive...just that is is available to all! Just like Christ dying on the cross for all...but not all will accept his sacrifice on the cross.

If it was they would not have been calling the disciples drunk. That is not a result of the outpouring of the Spirit on all flesh.
If it was then all would be saved today; but they are not.
Your interpretation does not fit the context.

your interpretation contradicts!!! Peter said what they saw was what was prophesied in Joel.

The phrase is only used once in the Bible, and is used as a gift of the Spirit, and as a revelatory gift. It would be God revealing special knowledge yet unknown to NT believers because the NT is not yet complete.

WHy do you continue to add to the word..nowhere does it say that knowledge will end when the Bible is complete! God still reveals special knowledge to us on a personal level. That does not add or take away from the sciptures and it never speaks contrary to the Word. Why would anyone want to prove this is done away except satan himself? He is the one that does not want us to hear from God. I have ask this many times and still have not received an answer...HOW DID YOU KNOW YOU WERE CALLED TO BE A MISSIONARY? Even with the scripture that we are to go..that does not mean we are all sent to other countries! At one point in your life the Spirit had to speak to your spirit personally to go.

No, I said your definition of "word of knowledge" is wrong. Why are you accusing me of things I never said?

Then explain your answer..because that is what it sounded like to me.

I wasn't desperate at all. But if you didn't understand what I said, that is ok. Just leave it.

Maybe you need to leave that stuff out of the debate..because it really makes you look desperate to prove your point.

No, I am correcting your definition of the "word of knowledge."
What makes you the authority on Biblical terminology and gives you the authority to change it after 20 centuries of standard usage. That is what cults do--change the meanings of words.

It is God providing to us information, insight, and understanding about something! Prove me wrong! I can also give you several examples in the Bible OT and NT of this happening.

And so??
That doesn't mean it was one of the gifts of the Spirit. It doesn't make them operational. God uses different people in different ways.

You are giving man more credit than God! Man can not manifest this kind of knowledge without the Holy Spirit! It is that simple! You make it hard and your theories contradict scripture!

 

[awaken]

Here is an interesting testimony by a person who went from a tongues-speaking church (a practice which both awed and disgusted him) to atheism and then back to Christianity: http://knowitstrue.com/an-extra-biblical-examination-on-the-gift-of-tongues/

He points out that "Gnostic, Coptic, Hindu, pagan, shaman, and Sufi (a type of Islam) have been all known or have been reported to practice ecstatic utterances." So even the Sufi Muslim mystics apparently speak in tongues!

Pointing out the false does not disprove the true!
Satan is really working overtime trying to disprove God's word on this and has kept us in the dark for a long time because of our teachers/seminaries have passed down wrong theology.

Makes me wonder...if satan is out to keep the confusion and debates going..what is his motives?

 

[awaken]

But that is where your theology came from. You said you started thinking about Charismatic doctrines when you wanted to defend your own doctrine. And all along on the BB, your doctrines have dovetailed with major Charismatic doctrines. So you have linked yourself inextricably with the heretics of the Charismatic movement. And you have so far refused to condemn any Charismatic doctrine or practice, just said that you disagree. That you are ignorant of the roots of the movement doesn't change that.

I know what the Bible says on the manifestation of the Spirit. This I have searched out myself..after praying to my Father for guidance. Yes, my search started in order to disprove that the Holy Spirit manifest himself today, because the Bible tells us to study to know how to defend what we believe. In this process...I came across the truth that I am sharing now concerning the manifestation of the Holy Spirit that was poured out on the Day of Pentecost to the church and is still operating today.

As for us Baptists, I defy you to find any Baptist doctrine anywhere near as heretical as the Charismatic heresies DHK and I have delineated. What Baptists have ever said we are incarnations of God just like Christ is? And once again, that is a doctrine you refuse to oppose. Just disagreeing with such an egregious heresy doesn't cut it.

I am still Baptist because they have more truth than not...but in some Baptist churches they have gone way off in some areas as well.

I have never said that we are incarnated like Christ! We are born of God!

If you would simply condemn Charismatic doctrine I would like link you rather with the old line Pentecostals rather than the Charismatics. But you refuse to condemn terrible heresy.

I can not condemn what I do not understand! In the past I condemned the manifestation of the Holy Spirit...later had to repent of it! Just because I do not condemn something does not mean I agree with it! I JUST DON'T KNOW ENOUGH TO COMMENT EITHER WAY.

 

[DHK]

"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, AND I will pray with the understanding also."
The AND shows two ways. Praying in the spirit is praying in tongues! How much plainer does Paul have to write. Do you think God likes you changing His word to fit your theory?

Let me explain this to so you will understand it better. Remember I am a missionary to: more than one nation, and especially one nation that speaks many different languages all of which I don't know.

Secondly remember that Paul had the gift of languages for he spoke in languages more than them all. Why? He went to foreign nations, as Spain, where he would not have known the language. God would have given him that language to communicate NT revelation to them: for the gospel and for further revelation from God in teaching.

Thirdly, if God were to give me the language of Spanish would I understand the language I was speaking in (i.e. Spanish)? I would have to! I would have to be able to think in that language, use the grammar of that language, be able to know exactly what I am saying so that I can teach the people properly. I would even have to know the local idioms of the area. Definitely, I would have to know the language that I was speaking. That is what is supernatural about the gift of languages/tongues. It was supernatural; a gift given by God to communicate revelation to others, that they might understand. Understanding is the key word in all of chapter 14. If there is no understanding sit down and keep quiet. That is the command.

Why then, was an interpreter needed in the first century when the gift of tongues or languages was in effect? I am not entirely sure, but it is my opinion that it was translated back into the common language for others, or perhaps the Hebrew language for the Jews, as a sign for them. Either way it was a sign for the Jews, the second reason that other languages were spoken. When judgment came upon the Jews the sign was taken away. That happened near the end of the first century (70 A.D.)

All the gifts of the Spirit, collectively, were given to the Apostles, as a sign that they were apostles. This was not done for others as 1Cor.12 points out. Some had one gift; some another. The gifts of the Spirit were a sign to authenticate the message of the Apostle and the Apostle himself.

No where does it say AN INTERPRETER. The Holy Spirit manifest the interpretation to the person supernaturally! You do not go to school to learn how to manifest the Holy Spirit. YOu are trying to give credit to man what God does through His church in a miraculous way. You think that brings Him glory? Or that God can do through man what man can not do without HIm bring Him Glory? Which one do you thing brings God more glory and which one brings man more glory? Think about it!!

Paul said that no more than two or three could speak in languages, and even then they had to speak in order--turn by turn. Then he stipulated that each one had to have an interpreter. If there was no interpreter "let him keep silence in the church." He is very clear on that point. It is also clear that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to the local church and the local church only. There is the gift of administration. Do you go home and administer yourself?
Your entire post still "manifests" that you don't understand the word "manifestation." You give an existential, esoteric, mystical, metaphysical meaning to it. It is ambiguous so you can change the meaning at will.

Every prayer can be prayed privately...including tongues!

If my mother tongue is English and God had given me the ability to speak in Spanish why would I pray in Spanish when my mother tongue is English and I can much better pray and communicate my inner most thoughts to God in English. Prayer is communication with understanding. Tongues does not do that.

Show me where it says that God gave him tongues for missionary work. There is no record in scripture where anyone used speaking in tongues to do missionary work.

Paul went on three missionary journeys, and then came back and said: "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all." Find out why. Do some study.

YOu can not pick and chose to fit your theory! Tongues was a manifestation of the Holy Spirit for the church! THe church is still here!

The Bible says to rightly divide the Word of truth; not to wrongly butcher it. It all fits together nicely, harmonizes so that there are no contradictions. My interpretation is correct so that it doesn't contradict any other portion of Scripture. Tongues ceased at the end of the first century.

No where did he forbid tongues anywhere!! If you are going to pray in the spirit in church...then interprete it so others can be edified! That is the only thing he spoke against concerning tongues except the order to do it in verse 27,28. NOWHERE DOES HE FORBID praying privetly!!!

It was a gift given to the local church to be used in the local church as were all the gifts of the Spirit. It demanded interpretation. The tongues and interpretation thereof were both for the edification of the church and for the Jews. You can't do that privately. There is an example of prayer in 1Cor.14. It is public, not private.

ANd I agee with Paul! In the church interpret it so others can be edified by your prayer. (verse 16,17) But NOWHERE DOES HE FORBID TO PRAY IN PRIVATE!

The only kind of praying in another language is in a local church. There is no such thing as a private prayer language. You cannot prove that from Scripture.
Nowhere does he command infant baptism either.
Nowhere does he command driving to church either.
By that logic you can read anything you want into the Bible.

No, I am not deceived...you are! Because satan has convinced you there is no benefit to praying in the spirit! Satan attacks this one manifestation more than any other...ever wonder why?

Praying in another language is not scriptural, nor is it a gift of the Spirit today. If it were you would give evidence of it. Not even you have that gift.
As far as Manifestation" is concerned, you don't even know how to define it in your own words properly.

 

[DHK]

Actually, Elijah did not have the indwelling Spirit, did he? Yes! God called him and used him in a mighty way! Have I ever said God called me to do the things his apostles have done? NO! I have said over and over I am not called to do certain ministries! But praying in the spirit is not just for the Great, mature christians!

Nice put down of Elijah. I am sure he will appreciate it. Can you call down fire from heaven?
God hasn't called you to do any of the ministries of the apostles and never will because the gifts of the Spirit has ceased. You are simply being hypocritical. You say they are operational out of one side of your mouth, and then say that God has not called you to perform them out of the other side of your mouth. Do you know what people call that??

Show me one verse where it says the one praying HAS to know the language he is speaking. YOu can not!

I already have. Read the post.

But I can show you a scripture where it says that we don't...14:2 We speak to God not to man! No man understands us ...unless an interpretation is given...that is why Paul encouraged us to pray for the interpretation.

Obviously if you speak in Spanish to an English only congregation no one will understand you. But you can understand yourself. What kind of nonsense is that? If there were Jews present then you would need some interpretation.

That does not prove when Acts was written...just when it happened.

And that is what I said. About 25 years after Pentecost.

I agree it is not JUST to edify yourself..that is just one benefit! Jude confirms it in vs. 20!

Jude doesn't say anything about tongues. Other Scripture taken out of context here. You like to do that. If you edify yourself it is wrong. The gifts were given to edify all.

Unless he forbids it you can not make your own man-made theories out of it! You have already admitted it is praying! So show me in scriptures where it forbids ANYONE to pray alone.

Show me in Scripture where he forbids anyone to stand on their head while praying. It is not what he forbids, but what he commands. He commands that the gifts be used for the local church. They are gifts for the local church, for the edification of the local church, and not for the sole purpose of the individual. Chapter 12 makes that clear and chapter 14 the entire context is the local church.

Do you study your Bible outside the church? Do you sing outside the church? Do you comfort others outside the church..etc. Get the picture? You are forbidding what God did not! NOWHERE IN SCRIPTURES DOES IT FORBID PRAYING TO EDIFY YOURSELF. Just like reading the Bible, singing etc. They all lift our spirits! THat is edifying yourself! THAT IS NOT FORBIDDEN! As a matter of fact it does edify the church! The stronger we are spiritually...the strong the body is as a whole!

That is all moot. Speaking in another language does not edify you. It brings you confusion. If you are praying to God, the way to pray is in your own language where you can communicate to God your innermost thoughts, petitions, supplications, and travail with him in prayer. You cannot do that in another language.

It was poured out for all to receive...but we have a choice to receive it or reject it!

You are adding to the Word of God. That is not what it says. It says the Holy Spirit was poured out on all flesh. Period. That did not happen. It also speaks of great signs in the heavens. That did not happen.

It does not say they will all receive...just that is is available to all! Just like Christ dying on the cross for all...but not all will accept his sacrifice on the cross.

Again you are adding to the Word of God. It simply says that His Spirit was poured out on all flesh. It wasn't.

your interpretation contradicts!!! Peter said what they saw was what was prophesied in Joel.

He didn't say it was completely fulfilled. It was a partial fulfillment.

WHy do you continue to add to the word..nowhere does it say that knowledge will end when the Bible is complete!

Knowledge will never end. Else we will be mindless zombies. The context clearly shows that it is revelatory knowledge that ceased.

God still reveals special knowledge to us on a personal level. That does not add or take away from the sciptures and it never speaks contrary to the Word.

God is finished giving revelation.

Why would anyone want to prove this is done away except satan himself? He is the one that does not want us to hear from God. I have ask this many times and still have not received an answer...HOW DID YOU KNOW YOU WERE CALLED TO BE A MISSIONARY? Even with the scripture that we are to go..that does not mean we are all sent to other countries! At one point in your life the Spirit had to speak to your spirit personally to go.

God led me. He didn't give me special revelation. To say that he did is of Satan.

Then explain your answer..because that is what it sounded like to me.

I simply said that "word of knowledge" has to do with revelation being given in the NT. It has nothing to do with ongoing revelation today, or nothing to do with the unique way that you are defining it.
You ridiculously accuse me of saying that I don't believe in the Holy Spirit.

It is God providing to us information, insight, and understanding about something!

Prove me wrong! I can also give you several examples in the Bible OT and NT of this happening.

That is because God communicated directly to the prophets and apostles directly during those times. He does not do that today. We have the NT. Every thing we need to know is in the pages of the Bible. Use it.

You are giving man more credit than God! Man can not manifest this kind of knowledge without the Holy Spirit! It is that simple! You make it hard and your theories contradict scripture!

No I am not. I said the Holy Spirit still works today. He simply does not work through the same way as he did in the first century. He does not work through the gifts of the Holy Spirit. For example there is no one today that can demonstrate the gift of healing.
He does not work in the same way he did with Israel.
He does not lead you with a pillar of fire by night does He?
He works in different ways in different times.
Is that so hard a principle to accept?

 

[awaken]

Let me explain this to so you will understand it better. Remember I am a missionary to: more than one nation, and especially one nation that speaks many different languages all of which I don't know.

Secondly remember that Paul had the gift of languages for he spoke in languages more than them all. Why? He went to foreign nations, as Spain, where he would not have known the language. God would have given him that language to communicate NT revelation to them: for the gospel and for further revelation from God in teaching.

You are assuming here with no scripture proof! Because NOWHERE in the scriptures does it say it was given to preach the gospel. Paul told us what it was..praying in tongues/praying in the spirit. Acts accounts shows that they were magnifying God/praising God! They were not addressing the people!

Thirdly, if God were to give me the language of Spanish would I understand the language I was speaking in (i.e. Spanish)? I would have to! I would have to be able to think in that language, use the grammar of that language, be able to know exactly what I am saying so that I can teach the people properly. I would even have to know the local idioms of the area. Definitely, I would have to know the language that I was speaking. That is what is supernatural about the gift of languages/tongues. It was supernatural; a gift given by God to communicate revelation to others, that they might understand. Understanding is the key word in all of chapter 14. If there is no understanding sit down and keep quiet. That is the command.

Show me in scripture! Nowhere does it say it was used for preaching. THINK!! Only believers can manifest Holy Spirit! You are saying if someone has a gift of different languages that they can manifest HS. Unbelievers have the ability to speak different languages....Go back to the drawing board and look up praying in the spirit/tongues! They were given to the church/believers! They were a manifestation of the Holy Spirit! They were given to edify self and the congregation when interpreted!

Why then, was an interpreter needed in the first century when the gift of tongues or languages was in effect? I am not entirely sure, but it is my opinion that it was translated back into the common language for others, or perhaps the Hebrew language for the Jews, as a sign for them. Either way it was a sign for the Jews, the second reason that other languages were spoken. When judgment came upon the Jews the sign was taken away. That happened near the end of the first century (70 A.D.)

Again...unbelilevers can translate! So how is that a manifestation of the Holy Spirit?

All the gifts of the Spirit, collectively, were given to the Apostles, as a sign that they were apostles. This was not done for others as 1Cor.12 points out. Some had one gift; some another. The gifts of the Spirit were a sign to authenticate the message of the Apostle and the Apostle himself.
Paul said that no more than two or three could speak in languages, and even then they had to speak in order--turn by turn. Then he stipulated that each one had to have an interpreter. If there was no interpreter "let him keep silence in the church." He is very clear on that point. It is also clear that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to the local church and the local church only. There is the gift of administration. Do you go home and administer yourself?

Do you even know what that is talking about?

Your entire post still "manifests" that you don't understand the word "manifestation." You give an existential, esoteric, mystical, metaphysical meaning to it. It is ambiguous so you can change the meaning at will.

No, I was plain in my first post... the meaning has not changed. I can't believe you struggle so much with that word and it's meaning.

If my mother tongue is English and God had given me the ability to speak in Spanish why would I pray in Spanish when my mother tongue is English and I can much better pray and communicate my inner most thoughts to God in English. Prayer is communication with understanding. Tongues does not do that.

How can you understand this...when you don't even believe it is speaking to God?

Paul went on three missionary journeys, and then came back and said: "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all." Find out why. Do some study.

Paul spoke in tongues because it is PRAYING TO GOD/SPEAKING TO GOD!!

The Bible says to rightly divide the Word of truth; not to wrongly butcher it. It all fits together nicely, harmonizes so that there are no contradictions. My interpretation is correct so that it doesn't contradict any other portion of Scripture. Tongues ceased at the end of the first century.
It was a gift given to the local church to be used in the local church as were all the gifts of the Spirit. It demanded interpretation. The tongues and interpretation thereof were both for the edification of the church and for the Jews. You can't do that privately. There is an example of prayer in 1Cor.14. It is public, not private.

No, it did not cease and you have failed to prove it!

The only kind of praying in another language is in a local church. There is no such thing as a private prayer language. You cannot prove that from Scripture.

You have already admitted it was praying in another post..are you now changing your theory? Well, I guess that is what is good about theories you can change them. The word of God on the other hand is sound and does not change.

Nowhere does he command infant baptism either.

Your point?

Nowhere does he command driving to church either.

More desperate reasoning!

By that logic you can read anything you want into the Bible.
Praying in another language is not scriptural, nor is it a gift of the Spirit today. If it were you would give evidence of it. Not even you have that gift.
As far as Manifestation" is concerned, you don't even know how to define it in your own words properly.

I defined it in the first post...you are the only one that seems to have a problem understanding it! Praying in the spirit is the same as praying in tongues...Paul said..he was inspired by God to write it...therefore I believe Paul over you!

 

[Yeshua1]

You are speaking to a people that have never witnessed a working of the Holy Ghost, therefore it does not and cannot exist. If something does happen, they will immediately assign it to Satan instead of rejoicing at another miracle of Jesus. They have quenched the Spirit with their knowledge, and have become stiff necked like the children in the desert. Can't you see how little faith they have just to live? Watch the way they talk, it is always flesh and fear.

I was an Elder in the Assemblies of God, trained and educated by them at their school, so know what pentacostalists believe and what scriptures they use!

My MAIN/primary concern is with the modern Charasmatics such as the hagin/Copelands/price/Hinn etc heretics all!

 

[awaken]

Nice put down of Elijah. I am sure he will appreciate it. Can you call down fire from heaven?

That does not surprise me that is what you got out of that!

God hasn't called you to do any of the ministries of the apostles and never will because the gifts of the Spirit has ceased. You are simply being hypocritical. You say they are operational out of one side of your mouth, and then say that God has not called you to perform them out of the other side of your mouth. Do you know what people call that??

NO, where I come from that is called being honest!

I already have. Read the post.

No, you have not!

Obviously if you speak in Spanish to an English only congregation no one will understand you. But you can understand yourself. What kind of nonsense is that? If there were Jews present then you would need some interpretation.

Then why does one need an interpreter????? You are not making sense and it is getting boring discussing with you! IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IN A LANGUAGE...THEN YOU CAN INTERPRETE IT YOURSELF! 1 Cor.14:2...'NO MAN UNDERSTANDS'

And that is what I said. About 25 years after Pentecost.
Jude doesn't say anything about tongues. Other Scripture taken out of context here. You like to do that. If you edify yourself it is wrong. The gifts were given to edify all.

whatever DHK...next time your children go to play a sport...don't let him do anything on his own to help himself. Because that would not be benificial to the team. Nonsense!!!

Show me in Scripture where he forbids anyone to stand on their head while praying.

good point! So I can pray standing on my head, laying in the pool, driving in my car, with others or BY MYSELF. No restriction on prayer life! Thanks for proving my point!

It is not what he forbids, but what he commands. He commands that the gifts be used for the local church. They are gifts for the local church, for the edification of the local church, and not for the sole purpose of the individual. Chapter 12 makes that clear and chapter 14 the entire context is the local church.

more evidence that you really do not know what 'word of knowledge' .. 'word of wisdom'..'discerning of spirits'..'faith..etc. really are. Because all of them can be used outside the walls of a local church.

That is all moot. Speaking in another language does not edify you. It brings you confusion.

If you only knew the edifying it does! But you will not know because you do not believe in it! So lets just leave it at that...I believe and am edified...you do not believe and do not benefit or does your church from it.

If you are praying to God, the way to pray is in your own language where you can communicate to God your innermost thoughts, petitions, supplications, and travail with him in prayer. You cannot do that in another language.

You keep missing the part where Paul tells you to pray BOTH ways...with the spirit/tongues AND with my understanding. TWO ways!

You are adding to the Word of God. That is not what it says. It says the Holy Spirit was poured out on all flesh. Period. That did not happen.

So take it up with Paul or better yet the real author of scripture..the Holy Spirit himself!

It also speaks of great signs in the heavens. That did not happen.
Again you are adding to the Word of God. It simply says that His Spirit was poured out on all flesh. It wasn't.

Please someone show this man what that scriptures really means...He will not listen to me! THE LAST DAYS ARE NOT OVER DHK...

He didn't say it was completely fulfilled.

yES! that is why we have not seen the second fulfulment wonders in heaven..signs in the earht..etc. It was a partial fulfillment.

Knowledge will never end. Else we will be mindless zombies. The context clearly shows that it is revelatory knowledge that ceased.
God is finished giving revelation.

Not if we know as we are known...

God led me. He didn't give me special revelation. To say that he did is of Satan.

Really, His Spirit did not reveal that to your spirit?

I simply said that "word of knowledge" has to do with revelation being given in the NT. It has nothing to do with ongoing revelation today, or nothing to do with the unique way that you are defining it.

I see you still have not shown me where a word of knowledge is being used throughout the Bible. Would you like me to share some with you?

You ridiculously accuse me of saying that I don't believe in the Holy Spirit.

Where did I say that? You are the one that says you do not believe the HS manifest Himself today.

That is because God communicated directly to the prophets and apostles directly during those times. He does not do that today. We have the NT. Every thing we need to know is in the pages of the Bible. Use it.

We are to know His voice!!

No I am not. I said the Holy Spirit still works today. He simply does not work through the same way as he did in the first century. He does not work through the gifts of the Holy Spirit. For example there is no one today that can demonstrate the gift of healing.
He does not work in the same way he did with Israel.
He does not lead you with a pillar of fire by night does He?
He works in different ways in different times.
Is that so hard a principle to accept?

We are still in the church age! This has not passed! You keep wanting to divide the time before God does! We have not moved out of the times of the Gentiles/ church age....the HOly Spirit will be here as long as the church is here. You can not put the HOly Spirit in your little box just because you can not comprehent how He is still working today!

 

[Yeshua1]

That does not surprise me that is what you got out of that!
NO, where I come from that is called being honest!
No, you have not!
Then why does one need an interpreter????? You are not making sense and it is getting boring discussing with you! IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IN A LANGUAGE...THEN YOU CAN INTERPRETE IT YOURSELF! 1 Cor.14:2...'NO MAN UNDERSTANDS'
whatever DHK...next time your children go to play a sport...don't let him do anything on his own to help himself. Because that would not be benificial to the team. Nonsense!!!

good point! So I can pray standing on my head, laying in the pool, driving in my car, with others or BY MYSELF. No restriction on prayer life! Thanks for proving my point!

more evidence that you really do not know what 'word of knowledge' .. 'word of wisdom'..'discerning of spirits'..'faith..etc. really are. Because all of them can be used outside the walls of a local church.

If you only knew the edifying it does! But you will not know because you do not believe in it! So lets just leave it at that...I believe and am edified...you do not believe and do not benefit or does your church from it.

You keep missing the part where Paul tells you to pray BOTH ways...with the spirit/tongues AND with my understanding. TWO ways!
So take it up with Paul or better yet the real author of scripture..the Holy Spirit himself!

Please someone show this man what that scriptures really means...He will not listen to me! THE LAST DAYS ARE NOT OVER DHK...
yES! that is why we have not seen the second fulfulment wonders in heaven..signs in the earht..etc. It was a partial fulfillment.
Not if we know as we are known...
Really, His Spirit did not reveal that to your spirit?
I see you still have not shown me where a word of knowledge is being used throughout the Bible. Would you like me to share some with you?
Where did I say that? You are the one that says you do not believe the HS manifest Himself today.


We are to know His voice!!




We are still in the church age! This has not passed! You keep wanting to divide the time before God does! We have not moved out of the times of the Gentiles/ church age....the HOly Spirit will be here as long as the church is here. You can not put the HOly Spirit in your little box just because you can not comprehent how He is still working today!

You have to realise that we are now under a different operation of the Spirit, as He worked in the transistion time in Acts in order to get the Church "off the ground" by His spiritual Gifts and Apostles/prophets, but not in that Age any more!