man's free will

[tnelson]

Some say God is not sovereign in salvation but, they give God thanks for their coversion. Why do they do that? Because they know in their heart that God was entirely responsible for it.

Some pray to God to save a lost love one or friend. Why do they do that? Because they know only God can save.

It is by His Grace,

mike

 

[Ray Berrian]

We pray for people because we cherish the ministry of the Holy Spirit who convicts the sinner of his or her need of Christ. We value the fact that someone might need to witness to the salvation plan so that those persons might find, or be found by Christ. True, salvation is all of God, as the Book of Jonah also declares, but people must respond in faith toward Him in order to be saved.

 

[russell55]

All these things require man to do something BEFORE they are born again.

Why do you assume that being born again and being saved are exact synonyms?

Isn't being saved a process, while being born again is a one-time event? I agree that faith is a condition for salvation. It is through our faith that we are justified, and through our faith that we are sanctified. But can you find any place where it says we must do something in order to be born again (or regenerated, or quickened)?

 

[Ray Berrian]

If a person is 'born again' he or she will finally be saved by Christ. If you are saved then you have been 'born again.' In the technical sense, you may well be correct.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by russell55:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />All these things require man to do something BEFORE they are born again.

Why do you assume that being born again and being saved are exact synonyms?

Isn't being saved a process, while being born again is a one-time event? I agree that faith is a condition for salvation. It is through our faith that we are justified, and through our faith that we are sanctified. But can you find any place where it says we must do something in order to be born again (or regenerated, or quickened)?</font>[/QUOTE]Sanctification is a process. Being saved is synonymous with being born again. (Born again only appears 3 or 4 times in the NT, BTW)

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Being saved is synonymous with being born again. (Born again only appears 3 or 4 times in the NT, BTW)

So we are being born again (1 Cor 1:18)? "Born again" is a past act; salvation is, in some senses, a continuing act. The two are not synonymous though they are inseparable.

[ June 30, 2002, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[pinoybaptist]

Would you all agree that the phrase used by Jesus rendered in the Bible "except ye be born again", originally was "except ye be born from above" or if not originally that way, it was supposed to mean that way ?
If so, then Jesus was really saying that except Nicodemus be one who was born from above, right ? Or was Jesus telling Nicodemus "except Nicodemus cause himself to be born from above, or strive to be born from above". Was that it ?
Did Jesus mean, "Nicodemus, you have got to do something and be born from above as a result of what you should do" ?
On the natural plane, can a baby cause the mother's womb's contractions and pains so he can be born ? Or would the contractions and pains come because it was time for the baby to be born in accordance with the laws of nature.

 

[russell55]

Being saved is synonymous with being born again.

Can you explain why you think that? No one who is not born again will ever be saved; but just because one invariably come with the other, does that mean they are synonymous? Being justified goes hand in hand with being born again, but that doesn't make it exactly the same thing as being born again.

(Born again only appears 3 or 4 times in the NT, BTW)

Well, I think it is a few more times than that, but the idea of being made new, or being raised to new life is found many places throughout the NT. I believe that being born again, being made alive again (or being quickened), getting a new heart, becoming a new creature, having hearts circumcised, being regenerated, are all phrases used in scripture to describe this initial work of the Spirit in our subjective experience of the salvation process.

[ June 30, 2002, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

[ScottEmerson]

It is by grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED.

For in this hope we WERE saved.

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

..made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions–it is by grace you have been saved.

He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

---

All of these passages speak of being "saved" in the past tense. While salvation is continuous, as is sanctification, being "saved" happens upon our acceptance of Christ.

Being saved and being born again are still synonymous.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by russell55:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Being saved is synonymous with being born again.

Can you explain why you think that? No one who is not born again will ever be saved; but just because one invariably come with the other, does that mean they are synonymous? Being justified goes hand in hand with being born again, but that doesn't make it exactly the same thing as being born again.

(Born again only appears 3 or 4 times in the NT, BTW)

Well, I think it is a few more times than that, but the idea of being made new, or being raised to new life is found many places throughout the NT. I believe that being born again, being made alive again (or being quickened), getting a new heart, becoming a new creature, having hearts circumcised, being regenerated, are all phrases used in scripture to describe this initial work of the Spirit in our subjective experience of the salvation process.</font>[/QUOTE]Born again appears once really, in I Peter:

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

John 3:3 and 3:7 translate it born again, but the better version may be born from above.

In the context of I Peter 1:22 and 23, born again sure seems synonymous with being saved.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Being saved and being born again are still synonymous.

Being born from above is the beginning of the salvation process in man. "Being saved" includes the whole shebang, including our sanctification and glorification.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Being saved and being born again are still synonymous.

Being born from above is the beginning of the salvation process in man. "Being saved" includes the whole shebang, including our sanctification and glorification.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...</font>[/QUOTE]Where do you get that? Born again (or born from above) only occurs three times. The only things we have about being born again are in the I Peter verse, which makes it equivalent to being saved and the verse saying that no one comes to the Father unless they are born again.

The phrase "born again" really didn't mean much to people until it was used by Jimmy Carter. The evangelicals took it and ran.

What do you say about all the passages where you have been saved is in the past tense?

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
What do you say about all the passages where you have been saved is in the past tense?

There is an already aspect and a not-yet aspect to salvation. We presently possess some but not all of what it means to be saved.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...

 

[Primitive Baptist]

Salvation encompasses election to glorification, the whole process.

"Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;" [II Cor. 1:10]

deliver = save

Jesus hath delivered us, doth deliver us, and will deliver us.

"Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." (Eph. 1:14)

The Spirit is the "earnest," or down payment, of our inheritance. Salvation will not be complete until resurrection morning. The child of God will experience what salvation is throughout all eternity.

[ July 01, 2002, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Primitive Baptist:
Salvation encompasses election to glorification, the whole process.

"Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;" [II Cor. 1:10]

deliver = save

Jesus hath delivered us, doth deliver us, and will deliver us.

Or is deliver sanctification? Saying deliver=save is to do so without specific evidence.

"Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." (Eph. 1:14)

The Spirit is the "earnest," or down payment, of our inheritance. Salvation will not be complete until resurrection morning. The child of God will experience what salvation is throughout all eternity.

Here's another translation:

14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

The Spirit here seems to be that the Spirit is with us until the other's who are God's possession are saved.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
What do you say about all the passages where you have been saved is in the past tense?

There is an already aspect and a not-yet aspect to salvation. We presently possess some but not all of what it means to be saved.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...</font>[/QUOTE]Then what else is needed to be saved? Scripture?

Or is what you're talking about sanctification?

I maintain that a man is saved fully and completely upon his accepting Christ. From that time until the time he dies, he is being sanctified. If we follow what you seem to be arguing, then a person saved at the age of 10 and who dies at 80 is "more saved" than the person who accepts Christ at 40 and dies at 50.

 

[russell55]

Born again appears once really, in I Peter:
1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
John 3:3 and 3:7 translate it born again, but the better version may be born from above.

Don't you agree, however, that being born from above and being born of the Spirit are the same thing? What about being made alive? Can you agree that that is the same thing, too? What about being regenerated? Is that not expressing the same thought as well?

What about this one from, from 1 Peter 1:3ff:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Our living hope (an undying confidence in God's provision for us--sounds an awful lot like saving faith to me!) is produced by our being born again. We are also born again to an inheritance reserved in heaven for us, and we are kept by the power of God through that saving faith for salvation that won't be revealed until the last time.

Here, the word salvation refers to something that won't be complete until our final glorification. So there is indeed something "not yet" about our salvation. There is some part of our salvation that is still to come.

Salvation is not a synonym for being born again. Sometimes, I think, it is used as a synonym for being justified; but I can't, off the top of my head, think of any place that it is used as an exact synonym for being born again.

[ July 02, 2002, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by russell55:
What about this one from, from 1 Peter 1:3ff:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Our living hope (an undying confidence in God's provision for us--sounds an awful lot like saving faith to me!) is produced by our being born again. We are also born again to an inheritance reserved in heaven for us, and we are kept by the power of God through that saving faith for salvation that won't be revealed until the last time.

Actually, the phrase "ready to be revealed" may refer to the power of God instead, due to the grammar of the phrase. It could also refer to the inheritence. This is a weak prooftext, especially in comparison to the verses that specifically say, "have been saved," indicating completeness.

 

[russell55]

Actually, the phrase "ready to be revealed" may refer to the power of God instead, due to the grammar of the phrase. It could also refer to the inheritence. This is a weak prooftext, especially in comparison to the verses that specifically say, "have been saved," indicating completeness.

I am not arguing that there is not a real sense in which we "have been saved." I think the word "saved" is often used to mean "justified", and our justification (in the legal sense of the word) is certainly complete or finished.

But the word "salvation" is also used to refer to other parts of the salvation process. In this verse in 1 Peter it refers to something that is in the future for us. It is most likely that the phrase "ready to be revealed at the last time" refers to our salvation (and I can't find a translation that doesn't agree with this); but whether it does or not, the point of the verse is that we are "being guarded to a salvation." In other words, this particular aspect of salvation is something we don't have yet, but are being kept for.

And this is not the only verse that points to future salvation for us. For instance, there is Hebrews 9:28:

...so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, not to bear sin, to those who eagerly await Him, for salvation.

Christ will come a second time, and the purpose of that second coming is the salvation of those who eagerly await Him. Once again, the word "salvation" refers to something that is still future for us.

Sometimes the word is used to with particular reference to our sanctification. See Philippians 2:

...work out your salvation....for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure

Anyway, the point of all of this, is that the word salvation is not a synonym for "born again", for the word "salvation" is much more all encompassing than the words "born again." It refers to the whole enchilada--the good work that God has begun in us, that He will be completing until the day of Christ Jesus.

[ July 02, 2002, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

[Brutus]

Hey guys;what has happened?I've been on vacation and come back to find that we are debating the difference between "born again" and "being saved" instead of man's free will which was the original topic!