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Man's Natural Powers Cannot Comprehend the Things of God

KenH

Well-Known Member
"Everything spiritual is, and must, of necessity, be parabolical to the carnal mind, and the wisdom of God ordained that it should be so; as it is written, "After that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God," 1 Corinthians 1:21. Hence Jesus himself spake in parables, giving this reason for so doing, "Therefore speak I to them in parables, because they seeing see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." And when his disciples asked, "Why speakest thou unto them in parables?" he answered and said unto them, "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given," Matthew 13:10-16. Thus saith the Lord by the Apostle Paul, "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned," 1 Corinthians 2:14. It is, therefore, nothing less than giving the lie to the Holy Ghost to say that man's natural powers can comprehend the things of God. The whole book of God is a profound mystery to the man untaught of God; and the more deep, sublime, and spiritual parts thereof are consequently the farthest removed from the apprehension of fallen reason, and the most offensive to the pride of man, whose rebellious free-will always aims to be God over God."

- excerpt from the preface to Joseph Irons' Nymphas
 

Paleouss

Member
Greetings Ken. Peace to you my brother.

I just wanted to make some comments about your topic, Men's powers to understand the things of God.

In the Reformed tradition, "total depravity does not mean utter depravity" (RC Sproul). In my experience, some High Calvinist tend to drift toward the thought that mankind, in their corrupted state, are in a state of "utter depravity". This is not the traditional thinking of the Reformed tradition and clearly not what John Calvin thought.

Total depravity means that the "entire" man is corrupted. It doesn't mean that the fallen man cannot "understand" anything that God might choose to show them (like Rom 1:19). For example, the natural man see's the Bible. They see the verses. The read the scripture. They don't say, what verses? I don't see any verses.

The natural man being in a state of total depravity (again not utter depravity) means that natural man "appraises" the information differently or "orders" that information inordinately because he is a slave to sin.


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure
 
For example, the natural man see's the Bible. They see the verses. The read the scripture. They don't say, what verses? I don't see any verses.

Good point. Jesus did say he who has ears let him hear. Everyone has ears to hear but it doesn’t necessarily mean that they will want to listen to what they hear.
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Greetings Paleouss,

While true that man is merely "totally" depraved and not "utterly" depraved, it is equally important to remember that the original meaning of "depraved" is closer to "inability" than it is to "diabolic". Like a bent arrow that can NEVER hit the bullseye no matter how many times it tries or how carefully it aims, so too, men are incapable of comprehending and desiring the things of God.

Such is not because the things of God are too complex ... they are actually "stupid simple". Rather, the 'fatal flaw' (to borrow a term from Shakespearean literature) is that what God asks is nonsensical to our "bent" nature.

When a man strikes us, God says to turn the other cheek, and our "total inability" (warped arrow) flesh finds itself unwilling to do what God asks. This is not because we don't "understand" what God said and not because what God asks is "too hard". This is because to our flesh, what God asks is "nonsensical" and abhorrent to our flesh. Our fists instinctively clench and our flesh demands "an eye for an eye" ... THAT makes sense. That is JUSTICE to our "total inability".

When our eye sees something desirable - a car or a woman - God says do not covet and do not lust, and our "total inability" (warped arrow) mind (thoughts) finds itself unable and unwilling to do what God asks. This is not because we don't "understand" what God said and not because what God asks is "too hard". This is because to our mind, what God asks is "nonsensical" and abhorrent. Our thoughts are instinctively drawn towards temptations and our imaginations play "brinksmanship" with sin ... THAT makes sense. THINKING isn't DOING to our "total inability".

When a person wrongs us and our heart cries out demanding action, God says we are to love them, and our "total inability" (warped arrow) spirit (inner man that drives our actions) finds itself unwilling to do what God asks. This is not because we don't "understand" what God said and not because what God asks is "too hard". This is because deep down inside where WE LIVE, what God asks is "nonsensical" and abhorrent. Our will is instinctively drawn towards reciprocation - loving those that love us and hating those that hate us ... THAT makes sense. Loving your enemies is the talk of a madman.

Thus to the natural man, it is not that we cannot "do the work", but rather "we don't want the job"! It is for this reason that Ephesians 2 makes such a big deal about SALVATION being a GIFT from God. It is the reason that Paul makes such a big deal about salvation GRACE NOT BEING WAGES.

It is less that we CANNOT, and more that we WILL NOT. Like John said (and Adam did):

John 3:19-20 [NIV] This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

Genesis 3:6-12 [NIV] When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?" He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid." And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?" The man said, "The woman you put here with me--she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Greetings Paleouss,

While true that man is merely "totally" depraved and not "utterly" depraved, it is equally important to remember that the original meaning of "depraved" is closer to "inability" than it is to "diabolic". Like a bent arrow that can NEVER hit the bullseye no matter how many times it tries or how carefully it aims, so too, men are incapable of comprehending and desiring the things of God.

Such is not because the things of God are too complex ... they are actually "stupid simple". Rather, the 'fatal flaw' (to borrow a term from Shakespearean literature) is that what God asks is nonsensical to our "bent" nature.

When a man strikes us, God says to turn the other cheek, and our "total inability" (warped arrow) flesh finds itself unwilling to do what God asks. This is not because we don't "understand" what God said and not because what God asks is "too hard". This is because to our flesh, what God asks is "nonsensical" and abhorrent to our flesh. Our fists instinctively clench and our flesh demands "an eye for an eye" ... THAT makes sense. That is JUSTICE to our "total inability".

When our eye sees something desirable - a car or a woman - God says do not covet and do not lust, and our "total inability" (warped arrow) mind (thoughts) finds itself unable and unwilling to do what God asks. This is not because we don't "understand" what God said and not because what God asks is "too hard". This is because to our mind, what God asks is "nonsensical" and abhorrent. Our thoughts are instinctively drawn towards temptations and our imaginations play "brinksmanship" with sin ... THAT makes sense. THINKING isn't DOING to our "total inability".

When a person wrongs us and our heart cries out demanding action, God says we are to love them, and our "total inability" (warped arrow) spirit (inner man that drives our actions) finds itself unwilling to do what God asks. This is not because we don't "understand" what God said and not because what God asks is "too hard". This is because deep down inside where WE LIVE, what God asks is "nonsensical" and abhorrent. Our will is instinctively drawn towards reciprocation - loving those that love us and hating those that hate us ... THAT makes sense. Loving your enemies is the talk of a madman.

Thus to the natural man, it is not that we cannot "do the work", but rather "we don't want the job"! It is for this reason that Ephesians 2 makes such a big deal about SALVATION being a GIFT from God. It is the reason that Paul makes such a big deal about salvation GRACE NOT BEING WAGES.

It is less that we CANNOT, and more that we WILL NOT. Like John said (and Adam did):

John 3:19-20 [NIV] This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

Genesis 3:6-12 [NIV] When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?" He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid." And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?" The man said, "The woman you put here with me--she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
Excellent
 

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
The natural man being in a state of total depravity (again not utter depravity) means that natural man "appraises" the information differently or "orders" that information inordinately because he is a slave to sin.
I think you're right. A natural man can understand right and wrong, know that sin is evil, understand that there is a mechanism whereby God can justly forgive us because of the work of Christ. What he cannot do without the Holy Spirit is to see as it were the value of this to himself. He has no sense of the beauty of Christ's sacrifice and no understanding of what his sin means to God.

The hearing of the word of God is essential and may be through reading or hearing preaching or even observing as a guest the church doing things like baptism or the Lord's supper. There may even be supernatural work in the sense of it coming to be that a person is at the right place at the right time for this to take place. Or they may be exposed to the written word in unlikely ways that are beyond mere chance.

But still, to see the worth and value of this is an ability that we do not automatically possess in our natural state.
 
There may even be supernatural work in the sense of it coming to be that a person is at the right place at the right time for this to take place.

I do not believe God leaves any person without the ability to hear, understand, and accept the Gospel. Even the most radical Buddhist, atheist, ect, will somehow, some way have the right circumstances come about in their life where they can either make the right decision or the wrong decision. Some people might only have one real opportunity to repent and believe, after that God might allow them to continue in their hardened state.
 

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
I do not believe God leaves any person without the ability to hear, understand, and accept the Gospel.
I wonder about that too. A man for sure can know right from wrong, know he's done wrong, and if he has access to scripture, know what his spiritual state is if the scripture is true. But if the Bible says the natural man tends to think all that is foolish the obvious answer to that is that he is going to need some kind of help. I do think some Calvinists for some reason like to make it seem like God arbitrarily withholds this type of grace because he just naturally has picked out a bunch of people who he hates but not all believe that the need for a work of the Holy Spirit means that God is doing that.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Excellent
It is true that the nature of man cannot fathom the mind of God and there lies the struggle. I’m harkened back to the story of a friend who’s father, having been born and raised in Pre war Germany emigrates to the US and joins the army to fight Germany whos government is now totally NAZI. He even has a brother in the German army But he feels strongly that US Liberties were worth the commitment. Long story short, he liberated Jewish prisoners from the consentration camps and I’m told would strip the guards down and if they discovered NAZI tattoos, would shoot them on the spot.

When I asked my friend why his father did that, killed fellow Germans, he said that the sight of all the carnage and suffering to the prisoners justified his actions. Was this man wrong? There is a giant part of me that would applaud his actions… NAZI’s are evil…kill the evil so that its effects are negated…. And then there is the part of me who thinks that “Vengeance is Mine, sayith the Lord”
 
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Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I do not believe God leaves any person without the ability to hear, understand, and accept the Gospel. Even the most radical Buddhist, atheist, ect, will somehow, some way have the right circumstances come about in their life where they can either make the right decision or the wrong decision. Some people might only have one real opportunity to repent and believe, after that God might allow them to continue in their hardened state.
If God demanded that in order to be saved a man had to walk on the ceiling, it would be reasonable to accuse God of keeping people from salvation. But man's inability is not of that nature. The Scriptures are widely available, and in countries where it isn't, the Bible is broadcast in by organizations like SAT-7. Man's inability is not physical, but moral. 'And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil' (John 3:19). 'Because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were they thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened' (Romans 1:21).

Perhaps I may give a word of testimony. My parents were only vaguely religious and not church-goers, but they were diligent to have me Christened into the Church of England as a tiny baby. When I was 12, I received a Gideon New Testament at school (this is Britain; no separation of Church and State here) and promptly stuffed it away in a drawer and forgot about it. Shortly afterwards, my mother became very ill and was whisked off to hospital in an ambulance at 2 am one night. I remembered my NT, fished it out of the drawer and read the 'helps' at the front. I did receive comfort and was able to say a prayer for my Mum and eventually to get to sleep. I read the whole NT through at this time.
At 13, I was 'confirmed,' but I had no real knowledge of God or the Lord Jesus. I think I could have been a Jew or a Moslem more easily than a Christian - I didn't understand what Christ had done. I read the entire Bible through around that time, but I still didn't understand it. Shortly after that, adolescence kicked in, and I forgot all about God and spent all my time drinking and chasing girls - not with any great success as to the latter, but not for want of trying! At University, I read the NT through again, but still didn't make anything of it. I understood the words, but not the message. I was approached by the University Christian Union a few times, but in my arrogance, I thought of myself as somehow being right with God - madness! - and never bothered with them.
It was not until I was 38 that 'it pleased God, who ...... called me by His grace, to reveal His Son in me.' Mrs Marprelate and I were invited to an evangelistic Bible Study, and for the first time, the penny dropped! Ever since then (1991), I have read and studied avidly and The Lord has been pleased to open my eyes to understand, to some degree at least.
So if learning and reading the Bible could make a Christian, I would have been one years before, but it is God who must open the heart to understand. But the Lord Jesus turns no one away who is sincere (John 6:37). He says, '.....Ask, and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and to him who asks it will be opened. .......If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him! (Luke 11:9-13). The only caveat here is that the commands 'ask,' 'seek,' 'knock' are in the Present Continuous tense - 'Keep asking, don't stop seeking, knock continually!' 'You will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul' (Deut. 4:29; cf. Psalm 40:1-3).
 
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DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
"All the doctrines of the gospel may be taught and declared in propositions and discourses, the sense and meaning whereof a natural man may understand." That is granted. "But it is denied that a natural man can receive the things themselves. There is a wide difference between the mind's receiving doctrines notionally, and it's receiving things taught in them really. The first a natural man can do. It is done by all who, by the use of outward means, do know the doctrine of the Scripture, in distinction from ignorance, falsehood and error."

"Some pretend that whatever is required of us or prescribed unto us in a way of duty, we have a power in an of ourselves to perform. If by this power they intend no more but that our minds, and the other rational faculties of our souls, are fit and meet, as to their natural capacity, for and unto such acts as wherein those duties do consist, it is freely granted; for God requires nothing of us but what must be acted in our minds and wills, and which they are naturally meet and suited for. But if they intend such an active power and ability as, being excited by the motives proposed unto us, can of itself answer the commands of God in a due manner, they deny the corruption of our nature by the entrance of sin, and render the grace of Christ useless." Owen, book 3, chapter 3 Corruption or Depravation of the Mind by Sin

Man's natural powers can comprehend things of God in the sense that the bare propositions and statements can indeed be understood. But to have the things of God have any real effect on us we are completely dependent on God, and this is something going on in addition to the making available of the gospel, even though that also may be part of God's working in our lives.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"All the doctrines of the gospel may be taught and declared in propositions and discourses, the sense and meaning whereof a natural man may understand." That is granted. "But it is denied that a natural man can receive the things themselves. There is a wide difference between the mind's receiving doctrines notionally, and it's receiving things taught in them really. The first a natural man can do. It is done by all who, by the use of outward means, do know the doctrine of the Scripture, in distinction from ignorance, falsehood and error."

"Some pretend that whatever is required of us or prescribed unto us in a way of duty, we have a power in an of ourselves to perform. If by this power they intend no more but that our minds, and the other rational faculties of our souls, are fit and meet, as to their natural capacity, for and unto such acts as wherein those duties do consist, it is freely granted; for God requires nothing of us but what must be acted in our minds and wills, and which they are naturally meet and suited for. But if they intend such an active power and ability as, being excited by the motives proposed unto us, can of itself answer the commands of God in a due manner, they deny the corruption of our nature by the entrance of sin, and render the grace of Christ useless." Owen, book 3, chapter 3 Corruption or Depravation of the Mind by Sin

Man's natural powers can comprehend things of God in the sense that the bare propositions and statements can indeed be understood. But to have the things of God have any real effect on us we are completely dependent on God, and this is something going on in addition to the making available of the gospel, even though that also may be part of God's working in our lives.
Yep! 'For the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God' (Romans 8:7-8). I don't see how the Holy Spirit could make it any clearer, but those who want further Scriptural proof can go to John 3:3-5 and, of course, 1 Cor. 2:14.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Greetings Ken. Peace to you my brother.

I just wanted to make some comments about your topic, Men's powers to understand the things of God.

In the Reformed tradition, "total depravity does not mean utter depravity" (RC Sproul). In my experience, some High Calvinist tend to drift toward the thought that mankind, in their corrupted state, are in a state of "utter depravity". This is not the traditional thinking of the Reformed tradition and clearly not what John Calvin thought.

Total depravity means that the "entire" man is corrupted. It doesn't mean that the fallen man cannot "understand" anything that God might choose to show them (like Rom 1:19). For example, the natural man see's the Bible. They see the verses. The read the scripture. They don't say, what verses? I don't see any verses.

The natural man being in a state of total depravity (again not utter depravity) means that natural man "appraises" the information differently or "orders" that information inordinately because he is a slave to sin.


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure
its like the lost hear the symphony Orchestra playin the songs, but cannot real hear and understand with appreciation, hear the music but not really able to apprecuate and understand the lyrics behind the songs
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
"All the doctrines of the gospel may be taught and declared in propositions and discourses, the sense and meaning whereof a natural man may understand." That is granted. "But it is denied that a natural man can receive the things themselves. There is a wide difference between the mind's receiving doctrines notionally, and it's receiving things taught in them really. The first a natural man can do. It is done by all who, by the use of outward means, do know the doctrine of the Scripture, in distinction from ignorance, falsehood and error."

"Some pretend that whatever is required of us or prescribed unto us in a way of duty, we have a power in an of ourselves to perform. If by this power they intend no more but that our minds, and the other rational faculties of our souls, are fit and meet, as to their natural capacity, for and unto such acts as wherein those duties do consist, it is freely granted; for God requires nothing of us but what must be acted in our minds and wills, and which they are naturally meet and suited for. But if they intend such an active power and ability as, being excited by the motives proposed unto us, can of itself answer the commands of God in a due manner, they deny the corruption of our nature by the entrance of sin, and render the grace of Christ useless." Owen, book 3, chapter 3 Corruption or Depravation of the Mind by Sin

Man's natural powers can comprehend things of God in the sense that the bare propositions and statements can indeed be understood. But to have the things of God have any real effect on us we are completely dependent on God, and this is something going on in addition to the making available of the gospel, even though that also may be part of God's working in our lives.
A sinner can sit to hear the gospel, memorize the facts stated, can say Jesus claimed to Be very God, claimed to die for our sins, stated to be resurrected, yet just like satan, refuse o acknowledge Him as Lord.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Yep! 'For the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God' (Romans 8:7-8). I don't see how the Holy Spirit could make it any clearer, but those who want further Scriptural proof can go to John 3:3-5 and, of course, 1 Cor. 2:14.
Also that Paul stated the Cross if a stumbling block to the Jews, and foolishness to gentiles, as neither would expect God Himself would be humbled to death upon the cross a a grave criminal
 

Paleouss

Member
Greetings to you atpolland. Thank you for your well thought out post. Blessing to you and your family. It would appear we for the most part are in agreement. Maybe some of the details we don't agree on.
the original meaning of "depraved" is closer to "inability" than it is to "diabolic"
It seems that the word "depraved" is latin. (a) "de" meaning thoroughly. (b) "proved" meaning crooked and perverse. So depraved should mean: thoroughly crooked and perverse.

To say that the word "depraved" means inability, although in some sense correct, would seem to bring confusion to the biblical concept, imo. I only say this from experience. For I have witnessed countless individuals define "depraved" as "inability" and from there conclude some kind of concept that is more in line with "utter depravity". A foundation that is an inch off square at the bottom is a foot of square at the top.
Such is not because the things of God are too complex ... they are actually "stupid simple". Rather, the 'fatal flaw' (to borrow a term from Shakespearean literature) is that what God asks is nonsensical to our "bent" nature.
Here you have brought up another word that has been commonly misused in theology and applied to mankind being "depraved", imo. That word being "nonsensical".

The word "nonsensical" is derived from the word "nonsense". Nonsense means "lacking sense or meaning". That is, the word "nonsense" suggests that at the very least something makes no sense to do and at the worst it is incoherent. I have found that many have drifted toward the term "incoherent" rather than toward "makes no sense to do".
When a man strikes us, God says to turn the other cheek, and our "total inability" (warped arrow) flesh finds itself unwilling to do what God asks. This is not because we don't "understand" what God said and not because what God asks is "too hard". This is because to our flesh, what God asks is "nonsensical" and abhorrent to our flesh.
I agree with this analysis.

This is why I like using the word "appraised" like in the NASB95. In 1Cor 2:14 (NASB95), "14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised." (underline mine).

The use of this word "appraised" in the NASB would seem to put proper perimeters upon this notion of "depraved" and "nonsensical" and restricting it from meaning utter depravity.
This is because to our mind, what God asks is "nonsensical" and abhorrent. Our thoughts are instinctively drawn towards temptations and our imaginations play "brinksmanship" with sin ... THAT makes sense. THINKING isn't DOING to our "total inability".
I agree with this analysis also. The only word I seem to be hesitant about is when you use "inability". I have had many try and spread the notion of an inability of mankind without any regard to distinguishing between culpable inability and self-salvation ability . The former mankind has, the latter he does not.

Great conversation atpollard
Peace to you
 

Paleouss

Member
Greetings Nolan. Thank you for your post. I hope your weekend was a blessed one.
I do not believe God leaves any person without the ability to hear, understand, and accept the Gospel.
If we look at Romans 1 then one would conclude just what you have asserted above.

In Romans 1:19 it says, "because what may be known of God is manifest in them". Here it would clearly seem to suggest that (1) natural man knows something about God and they know it because "God has shown it to them" (Rom 1:19).

What I see here in Rom 1:19 is an active agent being God and the passive agent being natural man. I think this is important to understand. That is, whatever can be known by the natural man is not up to him to find. Because God is the active agent and gives that knowledge to him.

It then goes on to say, in v 21, "although they knew God,". This clearly seems to indicate that the active agent, God (vs19), has sent them understanding to where they can know Him in some way (v21) and because He actively gave them this something...it was sufficient to give them the culpable ability to "glory Him as God" (vs21) and be "thankful". But they did not.

Peace to you, brother
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Greetings Nolan. Thank you for your post. I hope your weekend was a blessed one.

If we look at Romans 1 then one would conclude just what you have asserted above.

In Romans 1:19 it says, "because what may be known of God is manifest in them". Here it would clearly seem to suggest that (1) natural man knows something about God and they know it because "God has shown it to them" (Rom 1:19).

What I see here in Rom 1:19 is an active agent being God and the passive agent being natural man. I think this is important to understand. That is, whatever can be known by the natural man is not up to him to find. Because God is the active agent and gives that knowledge to him.

It then goes on to say, in v 21, "although they knew God,". This clearly seems to indicate that the active agent, God (vs19), has sent them understanding to where they can know Him in some way (v21) and because He actively gave them this something...it was sufficient to give them the culpable ability to "glory Him as God" (vs21) and be "thankful". But they did not.

Peace to you, brother
God has given to them general revelation of nature, and even then lost persons refuse to acknowledge Him as the Creator but choose stay in darkness and worship the creation and not the Creator Himself, as per Chapter 1 of Romans lays out to us
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
It seems that many on here can't see the forest for the trees.

There is a vast difference between salvation and sanctification. Even a child can understand John 3:16 and thus be saved. But even us older folks are still studying the word of God with the aid of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Look at it this way:
Is Jesus Lord without being our savior? Yes
Is Jesus our Savior without being our Lord? No
Can someone know Jesus as Lord and Savior, and thus be saved, but not fully understand what all of that means? Yes.
The last question is the key, in my mind.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I do not believe God leaves any person without the ability to hear, understand, and accept the Gospel. Even the most radical Buddhist, atheist, ect, will somehow, some way have the right circumstances come about in their life where they can either make the right decision or the wrong decision. Some people might only have one real opportunity to repent and believe, after that God might allow them to continue in their hardened state.
You are an idealist then
 
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