Many = All Many times In The Bible

[webdog]

You're so funny! :laugh:

Actually, if I had to pick one person on this board that I agree with regarding C/A, it would be Allan. I think he has the most balanced view.

I agree. He articulates through the keyboard what goes through my mind much better than I do

 

[Allan]

Christ's propitiation was not made for all . It was made for his elect only . The elect are not only from among the Jews , but from the Gentiles scattered throughout the world .

Look at 5:19 of the same book . : "We know that we are children of God , and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one . " ( NIV )

The children of God are not included in the designation of "the whole world" --s o the words translated 'whole world" is not to be taken in an absolute sense

I agree, whole world does not mean every single person on the planet (if you remember my arguments), it refers to every wicked and sinful person on the planet as defined by John himself. He defines his meaning of whole world explicitly both times he uses it in 1 John and both times in Revelation.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world

1Jo 5:19 [And] we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.


Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

So yes, even if one wants to go the route that 'whole world' means gentiles here, it still maintains its meaning I am arguing for (all wicked and sinful men) because that we who the gentiles were. Add to the that the term 'whole' is all inclusive, not exclusive.

It is limited in scope .

Agreed.

Check out Revelation 5:9 and 7:9 to get a proper perspective on the international scope of Christ's death without confusing His cross-work for something that covered everyone without exception . His work on the cross was without distinction , not without exception .

That isn't what those verse reflect unless one comes to them presuming something at the first. I agree that Rev 5:9 states that Christ redeemed us (meaning all those saved) but that does not presume it was not without exeception, especially in light of all the other verses of scripture which are typically used in these debates.

There were no national distinctions .

Not sure exactly where you were going with this.. ??

The verse 1 John 2:2 should always be viewed with John 11:51,52 in mind .

By what presumtion should 1 John 2 be viewed through John 11??

Actually 1 John 2:2 should always be viewed with the context in mind, next we should look the authors consistant usage of specific words (like 'whole world' in this instance and propiation). IF the author doesn't use the word more than once or maybe only in a slightly vague manner then we should see how those words are defined in the rest of scripture (first how it is defined in the OT, and parelelled in the NT). [editted in - we should still look to see how the words are used consistantly bur first to see how the auther defines then the other scriptures] After that, we should look at other verses to find validation or not of what we are understanding the verse to say.

We do not use our theology to define scripture but we use scripture to define our theology. I don't think you would disagree with that, would you?

"... Jesus would die for the Jewish nation , and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God , to bring them together and make them one .'

So Jesus died for the Jewish nation... does that mean the Jewish Nation has been set free from condemnation and sin?? If not the it would stand to reason that the 'us' in 1 John is either 1)not the nation of Israel since that would mean the whole nation was set free from condemnation and sin, or 2) it IS the nation of Israel refered to but though Christ died for all their sins only those of faith will be redeemed.

Thus it goes back to my original contention of:

Thus I find the confusion comes when we confuse Christ's propitation made for all (1Jn 2:2) and the Redemption of many that is applied by faith in the propitiation (Rom 3:25).

 

[Amy.G]

So Jesus died for the Jewish nation... does that mean the Jewish Nation has been set free from condemnation and sin?? If not the it would stand to reason that the 'us' in 1 John is either 1)not the nation of Israel since that would mean the whole nation was set free from condemnation and sin, or 2) it IS the nation of Israel refered to but though Christ died for all their sins only those of faith will be redeemed.

Allan, isn't this like when the high priest made atonement for the whole nation? Yet, not every single person would receive it because of unbelief. Otherwise, we have the Pharisees who Christ condemned being saved.

 

[Allan]

You're so funny!

Actually, if I had to pick one person on this board that I agree with regarding C/A, it would be Allan. I think he has the most balanced view.

Balanced? There are times I feel like I'm free falling :laugh:

I apprecaite both you and Web's kind words though I personally don't know... I have a hard time with such comments.. thank you.

 

[Allan]

Allan, isn't this like when the high priest made atonement for the whole nation? Yet, not every single person would receive it because of unbelief. Otherwise, we have the Pharisees who Christ condemned being saved.

Yes maam. That's it. :thumbs:

 

[Amy.G]

Yes maam. That's it. :thumbs:

Hey, I got one right! :laugh:

Thanks. :wavey:

 

[webdog]

You get most of them right, Amy :thumbs:






well...except for that little stretch a few months back
The thing is, keeping an open mind and heart to the Truth, however that goes against what we believe or want to believe. I have changed SO MANY things that I thought were right at one point.