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- Thread starter HisWitness
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Winman,
I ask a simple question and you go off on a tirade.
For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness,[Acts 8:23.
Anyway you are wrong. The human nature of Jesus Christ was not like us. He was the seed of woman. Everyone else ever born are the seed of both man and woman! Furthermore, I may be wrong but I don't believe the faith of Jesus Christ is ever mentioned.
I go off on a tirade because folks are not interested in truth. Folks are just as superstitious here at BB as they were back in the Dark Ages.
Romans 1:3 proves that Jesus received the seed of the male through his mother. This verse says Jesus was made of the seed of David. How in the world did Jesus receive the seed of David except through Mary his mother? And if he received the seed of David through his mother, then he also received the seed of Adam.
So, this belief that Jesus had some different nature than a real human nature because he did not have a human father is absolutely refuted by scripture, but nobody is intelligent enough to understand that. But everybody will believe a superstition from the Dark Ages. Ridiculous.
Think for 5 minutes and you will realize that Romans 1:3 proves this superstition to be pure error. Jesus had a human father through his mother just like us.
I have little tolerance for stupidity.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
For goodness sake, Winman, think a little before you go off on a tirade. Obviously Mary was a descendant of David, Abraham, and Adam. You and I are descendants of Noah and Adam. You and I are a descendant of Abraham [Abraham's seed] through Jesus Christ.
I don't understand how conception took place in Mary. No one does except the One who brought it about. That is God! But it did take place once and only once. Jesus Christ, in His human nature, is not just like you and me Winman; and that is the truth. Get used to it!
I repeat my earlier admonition!
For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness,[Acts 8:23.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
So we are all stupid except you Winman. I repeat once again:
For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness,[Acts 8:23].
Then you are denying the Virgin Birth! I repeat once again:
For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness,[Acts 8:23].
Bronconagurski
New Member
I agree with much of what you said about Christ. There is an out of print book you can still find at ebay and free online named "The Crises of the Christ" by G. Campbell Morgan. He makes your point very eloquently about how Christ was the only perfect man and that he faced down the devil and temptation in his humanity and went to the cross and suffered torture and endured it in his humanity. I got goose bumps reading about our Savior and how he went the last mile for us. I have included a link to the book where you can download it in pdf form:
http://archive.org/details/crisesofthechris00morguoft
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The question is: Why was Jesus Christ the only man who did not sin.
Winman says: [1]Jesus Christ in His human nature was like every other man, and [2] He was able to live sinless because of His faith.
Are you saying you agree with those statements?
Bronconagurski
New Member
No, I said much, not all. I can't adequately explain how God can be fully God and fully man. But Jesus was. I don't explain it, just accept it. Christ was tempted in all point like we are, that is clear. He was tempted by the Devil. He overcame it all in His humanity. It would be no great feat for God to fully overcome it, now would it? I am not sure what is meant by the faith part so I have reservations there.
HisWitness
New Member
Question for a Calvinist:: How can you say that the ALL(Many) that were made sinners through Adam was indeed all of mankind and turn around and say that the ALL(Many) that would be made Righteous through Christ was NOT indeed all of mankind but some of every kind ?
Now i believe in election of God also but i think this verse is a problem verse unto Calvinists
Maybe God elects some here and some there and eventually ALL of mankind through Christ--this was just a thought
What are your thoughts as a Calvinist on this topic ??
SovereignMercy
Member
Every person ever born, except for Jesus, died in Adam. Every person born from above, is in Jesus, not all of Adams race.
HisWitness
New Member
So you have the first Many(All) to be unconditional.
And you have the 2nd Many(All) to be conditional?
The Many in those verses are the very same grp of people
God did conclude ALL under Sin that he might have MERCY upon ALL.
They didnt deserve to be concluded under adam's sin because they didnt sin after the manner of adam's sin--BUT also they dont deserve to have mercy either for they are still sinners.BUT God is Righteous in doing both
You cant have it to be 1 conditional and 1 unconditional on the same grp of people.
it must be either 2 conditional or either 2 unconditional on the same grp of people.
And we know it cannot be 2 conditional of the dame grp of people--that would make it by the works of mankind and not the grace on God
Is he trying to say that Adam caused all to be lost, while jesus provided salvation for all?
Universalism here?
HisWitness
New Member
I am trying to get the true sense in which this text is referring unto
Cant ignore the truth on one part of it to make something else to be true
SovereignMercy
Member
HisWitness. Is everyone a descendant of Adam? Yes, from what scripture teaches. Jesus is the unique exception, having been born of a virgin and being fully God and fully man, although He is a descendant of Adam He did not inherit his sin nature because sin is passed from father to child, not by the mother.
Second question. Is everyone in Christ? The biblical answer is no. Only believers/the elect are.
The "all" in each case in conditional based on who you are "in". You're comparing apples to oranges if you try to say all is everyone in both cases. If that was the case the Holy Spirit wouldn't have put the two modifiers to all in the text. Those modifiers are "in Adam" and "in Christ".
Second question. Is everyone in Christ? The biblical answer is no. Only believers/the elect are.
The "all" in each case in conditional based on who you are "in". You're comparing apples to oranges if you try to say all is everyone in both cases. If that was the case the Holy Spirit wouldn't have put the two modifiers to all in the text. Those modifiers are "in Adam" and "in Christ".
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Bronconagurski
New Member
That is what is seems like to me, but he won't give you a straight answer. Reminds me of the Jehovah's Witnesses that come by our neighborhood from time to time. Maybe he doesn't have a clue what he believes.
And Romans 1:3 proves your superstition false.
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Jesus was made of the "seed of David" according to the flesh. And David was made of the seed of Adam. This verse proves that the male seed is passed by the mother and refutes your superstitious view that Jesus did not have a sin nature because he was born of a virgin.
The scriptures tell us why Jesus was born of a virgin, to be a sign.
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
There is not one word in scripture to support that men are born with a sin nature passed by the father. In fact, if anything, there is scripture to support the sin nature being passed by the woman.
Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
If there is such a thing as a sin nature, there is more scripture to support it being passed by the woman, there is ZERO scripture that suggests it is passed by the man.
Not only do the scriptures tell us Jesus was made of the seed of David a sinner, the scriptures also tell us that Jesus had the NATURE of the seed of Abraham who was born AFTER the fall.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Jesus took on the nature of the seed of Abraham, who was a sinner born after the so-called fall. Jesus was made like his brethren the Jews in ALL THINGS.
So, this teaching that Jesus avoided a sin nature by being born of a virgin is utterly false and easily refuted by MUCH scripture.
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SovereignMercy
Member
Is this what you believe then?
http://carm.org/religious-movements...-jesus-have-sin-nature-christadelphians-teach
You assault Jesus sovereignty so I guess we shouldn't be surprised that you assault His sinlessness and deity as well.
http://carm.org/religious-movements...-jesus-have-sin-nature-christadelphians-teach
You assault Jesus sovereignty so I guess we shouldn't be surprised that you assault His sinlessness and deity as well.
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Nope, I do not believe Jesus was born with a sin nature.
I do not believe anybody is born with a sin nature, but all men when they understand right from wrong choose to sin and become sinners. I believe a sin nature is a learned behavior.
It is like this, is anybody born an alcoholic? No, men choose to drink when they are not an alcoholic and become addicted. The same with drugs, cigarettes, pornography, you name it, this is the pattern you see.
Adam and Eve were created "flesh". The flesh has lusts and desires. These lusts and desires are not in themselves evil. It was not evil to desire to eat, we need to eat to survive. But when we over-eat we sin and harm our health. It is not wrong to desire sex, God designed us that way, but we are to confine it to marriage as God designed.
It is clear that Eve had lusts and desires before she actually sinned.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Here are the three lusts of the world shown in 1 John 2:16; Eve saw the tree was good for food, this is the lust of the flesh. She saw it pleasant to the eyes, this is the lust of the eyes. She saw it was desired to make one wise, this is the pride of life.
1 Jhn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Was Eve evil at this moment? NO, she had not sinned yet. But she had lusts and desires, this is what YOU call the sin nature. But it is not sin to want to eat, or to enjoy beauty, or to desire to be wise. God gave us food, God gave a beautiful woman to the man, and God tells us to be wise.
But in this instance it was evil, because God had forbidden to eat of this one tree.
Nevertheless, if Eve would have walked away she would have committed no sin. Temptation is not sin. Jesus was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin. When the devil tempted Jesus to turn bread into stones in the wilderness, Jesus was tempted. He was very hungry. But he did not obey the lust of his flesh and therefore did not sin.
You confuse the lusts of the flesh with sin. Adam and Eve were created flesh and had natural lusts, but God called them "very good". They only became evil when they actually disobeyed God and ate the forbidden fruit.
The scriptures say Jesus came in the flesh, and anyone who denies he came in the flesh is the spirit of antichrist.
HisWitness
New Member
So do you think God would unconditionly put all of mankind under sin and of the same grp of people(all of mankind) Conditionally put them under Righteousness ?
HisWitness
New Member
heres what i believe on this subject--Adam had the capabilty to be tempted and to SIN before the fall--now after the fall he still had that ability to be tempted and to sin--difference is God was no longer walking with him as in the garden--so he didnt have the leadership he did as in the garden and really went headlong into all his temptations and didnt have God to direct him anylonger as he had in the garden--so he basically was fullfilling the fleshly desires--dont know what people are meaning by sin nature--but he always had the ability to be temtped and to sin--even before the fall