Mark 4:1-20

[JonC]

James was not in the context of false versus true faith, in any sense of either of them.



Go to 2:12, where he said WE will be judged



Go to 3:1 where he said TEACHERS will be judged more strictly



EVERYTHING in between is in that context - a believer's future judgment.



You've got to get away from a narrow understanding of "saved" in verse 14. What if a man says (NOT "claims") he has faith, but has no works. Can faith by itself save him? Well, we've got to ask - save him from what?



In the context - which is clear, our future works judgment (see 1Cor 3:15-20) - James is asking this:



What if a man shows up to have his works tested, and he says accurately that he has faith. Yet he has no works. Can his faith save him from suffering loss? Paul made it clear that he will be saved as one escaping a fire. He will lose everything.



This is the "saved" James was talking about. Whether or not a person will have any reward. NOT whether he will go to heaven. He's already assured eternal life here, on the basis of faith. That's what Paul labored to demonstrate in Romans 3-4



To the one who DOES NOT work, his faith is credited as righteousness.



But rewards are a whole different issue. See Colossians 3:23-24 " do your work for the Lord, knowing that from Him you will receive the reward of the inheritance"



Read the intro to the book of James. Every single one I've read makes mention of how similar James is to the Sermon on the Mount. Then read the sermon, and see the one word which is most prominent - reward.

What do you believe is the context of James 2:19?

 

[JamesL]

What do you believe is the context of James 2:19?

I already stated it. EVERYTHING James wrote from 2:12-3:1 is in the context of being judged at the Bema Seat for rewards.

How could this apply to demons? It simply doesn't. But James wasn't trying to build an elaborate doctrine about these demons he mentioned.

Look what it's in response to- "one may well say you have faith and I have works. Show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

There has been MUCH debate about where to put quotation marks, to get who James is talking to. But anywhere you put quotation marks confuses the meaning. The bottom line is that there shouldn't be any.

Think of three people. James, you, and an observer.

Someone (an observer) may very well note that you (Jon) have faith, and I (James) have works.

There should be no quotation marks. The one who noted the faith is simply a third party observer.

Then he continues.

Since someone has noticed that you have faith, and I have works, show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

So then you reply with "hey, I believe there's one God."

Let's stop here for a moment and put the previous in the context of rewards judgment. He's saying that he acknowledges the reality of your saving faith, but he can't see any maturing, which will be evident through your works.

Don't you know that faith without works is useless, when you show up to have your works judged?

So you reply with "hey, I believe there's one God."

This is a reference to the thought of Hebrews 11:6 - whoever wishes to please Him must believe that He is....."

When he notes that the demons believe, he's simply saying "BIG DEAL". You think you please Him because you believe He is? You missed the second half of that verse. He is a REWARDER of those who SEEK Him.

But I'm not seeing you seek Him. Don't you know your works will be tested to see if you were seeking Him? THEN you will be rewarded

Abraham and Rahab fit this context as well

 

[Don]

I already stated it. EVERYTHING James wrote from 2:12-3:1 is in the context of being judged at the Bema Seat for rewards.

How could this apply to demons? It simply doesn't. But James wasn't trying to build an elaborate doctrine about these demons he mentioned.

Look what it's in response to- "one may well say you have faith and I have works. Show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

There has been MUCH debate about where to put quotation marks, to get who James is talking to. But anywhere you put quotation marks confuses the meaning. The bottom line is that there shouldn't be any.

Think of three people. James, you, and an observer.

Someone (an observer) may very well note that you (Jon) have faith, and I (James) have works.

There should be no quotation marks. The one who noted the faith is simply a third party observer.

Then he continues.

Since someone has noticed that you have faith, and I have works, show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

So then you reply with "hey, I believe there's one God."

Let's stop here for a moment and put the previous in the context of rewards judgment. He's saying that he acknowledges the reality of your saving faith, but he can't see any maturing, which will be evident through your works.

Don't you know that faith without works is useless, when you show up to have your works judged?

So you reply with "hey, I believe there's one God."

This is a reference to the thought of Hebrews 11:6 - whoever wishes to please Him must believe that He is....."

When he notes that the demons believe, he's simply saying "BIG DEAL". You think you please Him because you believe He is? You missed the second half of that verse. He is a REWARDER of those who SEEK Him.

But I'm not seeing you seek Him. Don't you know your works will be tested to see if you were seeking Him? THEN you will be rewarded

Abraham and Rahab fit this context as well

JamesL, I'm enjoying the discussion. I totally agree with you about quotation marks.

To keep this going, I'd like to ask for your thought on clarifying something: James' letter is written to the 12 tribes, scattered abroad. Are we to assume the context of the entire letter is to the saved, and thus discussing rewards? If so, are we to then assume that all members of the 12 tribes were saved?

(and for those that might say "off topic," it's still related to the opening post with regards to who the seeds were describing)

 

[JonC]

I already stated it. EVERYTHING James wrote from 2:12-3:1 is in the context of being judged at the Bema Seat for rewards.

Thank you James for the clarification. I missed how my question fit in with what you had already stated, but now I understand what you are saying.

I will say that I disagree in that I do believe James is dealing with a faith that is useless and dead (not towards reward but towards salvation). In other words, I believe James is speaking of a faith that leads to an action (even if we are speaking solely of repentance and belief being associated with faith rather than a mere cognitive acceptance of a truth).

I am not debating the point with you, just stating my understanding of that passage. That said, I will consider your view at length when I get the opportunity (I am not dismissing it, I just don't have the time right now to honestly consider your position...I very well may be misunderstanding James 2). Thanks again for the clarification.

 

[Yeshua1]

Thank you James for the clarification. I missed how my question fit in with what you had already stated, but now I understand what you are saying.

I will say that I disagree in that I do believe James is dealing with a faith that is useless and dead (not towards reward but towards salvation). In other words, I believe James is speaking of a faith that leads to an action (even if we are speaking solely of repentance and belief being associated with faith rather than a mere cognitive acceptance of a truth).

I am not debating the point with you, just stating my understanding of that passage. That said, I will consider your view at length when I get the opportunity (I am not dismissing it, I just don't have the time right now to honestly consider your position...I very well may be misunderstanding James 2). Thanks again for the clarification.

James is arguing for the sake that if one claims to have a real faith in jesus, saying that I have been saved, their lives and deeds will evidence that to some degree...

Paul argues from point that before God, it is faith alone/grace alone that saves us, but james adds that we can show that off before men by how we live afterwards...

 

[JamesL]

James is arguing for the sake that if one claims to have a real faith in jesus, saying that I have been saved, their lives and deeds will evidence that to some degree...

Paul argues from point that before God, it is faith alone/grace alone that saves us, but james adds that we can show that off before men by how we live afterwards...

That couldn't be any further from the truth.

 

[JamesL]

JamesL, I'm enjoying the discussion. I totally agree with you about quotation marks.

To keep this going, I'd like to ask for your thought on clarifying something: James' letter is written to the 12 tribes, scattered abroad. Are we to assume the context of the entire letter is to the saved, and thus discussing rewards? If so, are we to then assume that all members of the 12 tribes were saved?

(and for those that might say "off topic," it's still related to the opening post with regards to who the seeds were describing)

I do believe the epistle was written to the church at large, or believers to be more precise.

Much of my view here was formed by looking at exactly what was the original purpose of the Tribes. It was that each tribe would be allotted an inheritance by God, when they inhabited the land of Canaan. See Genesis 15:1-7:

After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying,
“Do not fear, Abram,
I am a shield to you;
Your reward shall be very great.”

Abram said, “O Lord God, what will You give me, since I am childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?”
And Abram said, “Since You have given no offspring to me, one born in my house is my heir.”
Then behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir.”
And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
And He said to him, “I am the Lord who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to possess it.”

God's initial promise of Abraham was that of a reward. But Abraham had a major concern; he had no offspring, so one born in his house (Eliezer) would be his heir. But God told Abraham that one from his own loins would be his heir - Isaac, the son of promise.

At the appropriate time, God called Israel out of Egypt to inherit the land. The entirety of the Law of Moses was for the purpose of separating Israel from the Canaanites. Several times, God gave a string of what seems to us like trivial commandments. But the was a context - "When you enter the land of Canaan, which I give you for a possession...." (Leviticus 14:34). See also Exodus 12:25 "When you enter the land which the Lord will give you, as He has promised...."

The land was a promised possession. Read what Paul said of the Twelve Tribes:

So then, all Jews know my manner of life from my youth up, which from the beginning was spent among my own nation and at Jerusalem;
since they have known about me for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that I lived as a Pharisee according to the strictest sect of our religion.
And now I am standing trial for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers;
the promise to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly serve God night and day. And for this hope, O King, I am being accused by Jews.
Why is it considered incredible among you people if God does raise the dead? (Acts 26:4-8)


The Twelve Tribes hope to obtain? Yes. Hebrews11, the so-called "Hall of Faith" is really an account of many who came before us and counted this world as nothing. They were sojourners in this land, choosing to endure hardship - For the were looking to the reward, like Moses (Heb 11:26).

And Heb 11:39 says "And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised"

How is it that they had not received what was promised? Because the earthly land was a mere picture of the eternal inheritance they would gain in the resurrection. That's why Abraham is commended in verses 17-19

By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;
it was he to whom it was said, “In Isaac your descendants shall be called.”
He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.

Abraham received Isaac back from the dead, in a manner of speaking, so that it would come to pass that Isaac would be the heir. The true inheritance will come in the resurrection. Paul said that "flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of God" because we must be resurrected, 100% perfect (body, soul, and spirit) in order to inherit a possession from God.

Look at what Ezekiel has to say about the future inheritance:

Thus says the Lord God, “This shall be the boundary by which you shall divide the land for an inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel; Joseph shall have two portions.
You shall divide it for an inheritance, each one equally with the other; for I swore to give it to your forefathers, and this land shall fall to you as an inheritance. (Ezekiel 47:13-14)

And at the end of the chapter:

“So you shall divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel.
You shall divide it by lot for an inheritance among yourselves and among the aliens who stay in your midst, who bring forth sons in your midst. And they shall be to you as the native-born among the sons of Israel; they shall be allotted an inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.
And in the tribe with which the alien stays, there you shall give him his inheritance,” declares the Lord God. (verses 21-23)


The Gentiles will share in the inheritance promised to Israel. That's what Paul was saying about the "mystery" of the gospel in Ephesians 2:11-22. The Gentiles have been brought near, into one body with Israel, to share in the promise of an eternal inheritance.

Jesus told the apostles that they would sit on thrones and judge the Twelve Tribes of Israel (Luke 22:30). See Matthew 19:28-29, where Jesus said:

“Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.


Also, Revelation 21 describes the city as having Twelve Gates and Twelve Angels, representing the Twelve Tribes of the sons of Israel


I did not mean to make this so long to get to a bottom line. Twelve Tribes is simply a euphemism for those who are looking for an eternal inheritance

And that fits with James' mention of Abraham begin justified by works. Not justified in the sense of being credited with righteousness, but justified in looking to the reward. He was willing to offer Isaac, which demonstrated that He really did believe God's promise about an inheritance through this son he was willing to sacrifice.