Mark contains three, four, visits to the tomb

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

7. Peter has another look


Luke 24:12 [TR]

Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre;

ὁ δὲ Πέτρος ἀναστὰς ἔδραμεν ἐπὶ τὸ μνημεῖον,

Ho de Petros anastas edramen epi to mnehmeion,


and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes

καὶ παρακύψας βλέπει τὰ ὀθόνια

kai parakupsas blepei ta othonia


laid by themselves, [Jh.20:6,7]

κείμενα μόνα,

keimena mona.


and departed,

καὶ ἀπῆλθε

Kai apehlthen


wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.

πρὸς ἑαυτὸν θαυμάζων τὸ γεγονός.

pros auton heauthaumadzohn to gegonos.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

8. Women return to “see again”


Mark 16:2

And very early in the morning the First Day of the week

καὶ λίαν πρωῒ τς μιᾶς … σαββάτων

Kai lian prohï tehi Miai tohn sabbatohn


to come they came upon the sepulchre

ἔρχονται ἐπὶ τὸ μνημεῖον,

erchontai epi to mnehma,


at the rising of the sun.

ἀνατείλαντος τοῦ ἡλίου.

anateilantos tou hehliou.

3

And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away

καὶ ἔλεγον πρὸς ἑαυτάς· Τίς ἀποκυλίσει ἡμῖν

Kai elegon pros heautas· Tis apokulisei hehmin


the stone from the door of the sepulchre?!

τὸν λίθον ἐκ τῆς θύρας τοῦ μνημείου;

ton lithon ek tehs thuras tou mnehmeiou?

4

And when they looked again, they saw that

καὶ ἀναβλέψασαι θεωροῦσιν ὅτι

Kai anablepsasai theohrousin hoti


the stone was cast away uphill :

ἀποκεκύλισται ὁ λίθος·

anakekulistai ho lithos:


despite it was very great.

ἦν γὰρ μέγας σφόδρα.

ehn gar megas sfodra

5

Again entering into the sepulchre, they saw

καὶ εἰσελθοῦσαι εἰς τὸ μνημεῖον εἶδον

Kai eiselthousai eis to mnehmeion eidon


a young man sitting on the right side,

νεανίσκον καθήμενον ἐν τοῖς δεξιοῖς,

neaniskon kathehmenon en tois deksiois


clothed in a long white garment.

περιβεβλημένον στολὴν λευκήν.

peribeblehmenon stolehn leukehn.


And they were frightened.

καὶ ἐξεθαμβήθησαν.

kai eksethambehsehsan.

6

And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted :

ὁ δὲ λέγει αὐταῖς· Μὴ ἐκθαμβεῖσθε·

Ho de legei autais· Meh ekthambeisthe!


Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth which was crucified :

Ἰησοῦν ζητεῖτε τὸν Ναζαρηνὸν τὸν ἐσταυρωμένον·

Iehsoun dzehteite ton Nadzarehnon ton estaurohmenon.


He was raised [is risen]; he is not here :

ἠγέρθη, οὐκ ἔστιν ὧδε·

Ehgertheh, ouk estin hohde;


Behold the place where they laid him.

ἴδε ὁ τόπος ὅπου ἔθηκαν αὐτόν.

ide ho topos hopou ethehkan auton!

7

But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter

ἀλλ’ ὑπάγετε εἴπατε τοῖς μαθηταῖς αὐτοῦ καὶ τῷ Πέτρῳ

Alla hupagete eipate tois mathehtais autou kai tohi Petrohi

that he goeth before you into Galilee :

ὅτι προάγει ὑμᾶς εἰς τὴν Γαλιλαίαν·

hoti proagei humahs eis to Galilaian.


there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.

ἐκεῖ αὐτὸν ὄψεσθε, καθὼς εἶπεν ὑμῖν.

Ekei auton opsesthe kathohs eipen humihn.

8

And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre;

καὶ ἐξελθοῦσαι ἔφυγον ἀπὸ τοῦ μνημείου·

Kai ekselthousai ephugon apo tou mnehmeiou,


for they trembled and were amazed :

εἶχε δὲ αὐτὰς τρόμος καὶ ἔκστασις,

eichen gar autas tromos kai ekstasis.


neither said they anything to any(one); so afraid were they.

καὶ οὐδενὶ οὐδὲν εἶπον· ἐφοβοῦντο γάρ.

Kai oudeni ouden eipan, ephobounto gar.

.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

9. FIRST APPEARANCE


John 20:11

But Mary had had stood after at the sepulchre without

Μαρία δὲ εἱστήκει πρὸς τῷ μνημείῳ κλαίουσα ἔξω

Maria de heistehkei pros tohi mnehmeiohi eksoh klaiousa.


weeping; and as she wept, she stooped down into the spulchre

ὡς οὖν ἔκλαιε, παρέκυψεν εἰς τὸ μνημεῖον

Hohs oun eklaien parekupsen eis to mnehmeion

12

and seeth two angels in white sitting,

καὶ θεωρεῖ δύο ἀγγέλους ἐν λευκοῖς καθεζομένους

kai theohrei duo angelous en leukois kathedzomenous,


the one at the head, and the other at the feet

ἕνα πρὸς τῇ κεφαλῇ καὶ ἕνα πρὸς τοῖς ποσίν,

hena pros tehi kephalehi kai hena pros tois posin


where the body of Jesus had lain.

ὅπου ἔκειτο τὸ σῶμα τοῦ Ἰησοῦ.

hopou ekeito to sohma tou Iehsou.

13

And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou?

καὶ λέγουσιν αὐτῇ ἐκεῖνοι· Γύναι, τί κλαίεις;

Kai legousin autehi ekeinoi:Gunai, ti klaieis?


She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord,

λέγει αὐτοῖς· Ὅτι ἦραν τὸν Κύριόν μου,

Legei autois hoti ehran ton Kurion mou,


and I know not where they have laid him.

καὶ οὐκ οἶδα ποῦ ἔθηκαν αὐτόν.

kai ouk oida pou ethehkan auton.


14

And when she had thus said, she turned herself back,

καὶ ταῦτα εἰποῦσα ἐστράφη εἰς τὰ ὀπίσω,

Tauta eipousa estrapheh eis ta opisoh


and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.

καὶ θεωρεῖ τὸν Ἰησοῦν ἑστῶτα, καὶ οὐκ ᾔδει ὅτι Ἰησοῦς ἐστι.

kai theohrei ton Iehsoun hestohta kai ouk ehidei hoti Iehsous estin.

15

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou?

λέγει αὐτῇ ὁ Ἰησοῦς· Γύναι, τί κλαίεις; τίνα ζητεῖς;

Legei autehi ho Jehsous: Ginai, ti klaieis? Tina dzehteis?


Whom seekest thou? She supposing him to be the gardener,

ἐκείνη δοκοῦσα ὅτι ὁ κηπουρός ἐστι,

Ekeineh dokousa hoti ho kehpouros estin!


saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence,

λέγει αὐτῷ· Κύριε, εἰ σὺ ἐβάστασας αὐτόν,

Legei autohi: Kurie, ei su ebastasas auton,


tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him.

εἰπέ μοι ποῦ ἔθηκας αὐτόν, κἀγὼ αὐτὸν ἀρῶ.

eipe moi pou ethehkas auton, kagoh auton aroh.

16

Jesus saith unto her, Mary!

λέγει αὐτῇ ὁ Ἰησοῦς· Μαρία.

Legei autehi ... Jehsous: Mariam!


She turned herself, and saith unto him,

στραφεῖσα ἐκείνη λέγει αὐτῷ· …

Strapheisa ekeineh, legei autohi Hebraisti:


Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

Ραββουνί, ὃ λέγεται, διδάσκαλε.

Rabbouni (ho legetai didaskale).


17

Jesus saith unto her, Don’t stay here by me;

λέγει αὐτῇ ὁ Ἰησοῦς· Μή μου ἅπτου·

Legei autehi ... Iehsous: Meh mou haptou,


for I am not yet ascended to my Father:

οὔπω γὰρ ἀναβέβηκα πρὸς τὸν πατέρα μου·

oupoh gar anabebehka pros ton Patera.


But go to my brethren, and say unto them,

πορεύου δὲ πρὸς τοὺς ἀδελφούς μου καὶ εἰπὲ αὐτοῖς·

Poreuou de pros tous adelphous mou kai eipe autois:


I ascend unto my Father, and your Father;

ἀναβαίνω πρὸς τὸν πατέρα μου καὶ πατέρα ὑμῶν,

Anabainoh pros ton Patera mou kai Patera humohn


and to my God, and your God.

καὶ Θεόν μου καὶ Θεὸν ὑμῶν.

kai Theon mou kai Theon humohn!


Mark 16:9

Thus, risen, Jesus early the First Day of the week appeared

Ἀναστὰς δὲ πρωῒ Πρώτῃ σαββάτου ἐφάνη

Anastas de, proh-i Prohtehi sabbatou ephaneh—


first to Mary Magdalene.

πρῶτον Μαρίᾳ τῇ Μαγδαληνῇ,

prohton Mariai tehi Magdalehnehi.


John 20:18

Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples

ἔρχεται Μαρία ἡ Μαγδαληνὴ ἀπαγγέλλουσα τοῖς μαθηταῖς

Erchetai Mariam heh Magdalehneh anggelousa tois mathehtais


that she had seen the Lord,

ὅτι ἑώρακε τὸν Κύριον,

hoti: Heohraka ton Kurion;


and that he had spoken these things unto her.

καὶ ταῦτα εἶπεν αὐτῇ.

kai tauta eipen autehi.


Marke 16:10

And she went and told them

ἐκείνη πορευθεῖσα ἀπήγγειλε τοῖς

Ekeineh poreutheisa apehngeilen tois


that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

μετ’ αὐτοῦ γενομένοις, πενθοῦσι καὶ κλαίουσι.

met’ autou genomenois, penthousi kai klaiousin.

11

And they, when they had heard that he was alive

κἀκεῖνοι ἀκούσαντες ὅτι ζῇ

Kakeinoi akousantes hoti dzei


and had been seen of her, believed not.

καὶ ἐθεάθη ὑπ’ αὐτῆς, ἠπίστησαν.

kai etheatheh hup’ autehs, ehpistehsan / kai ouk episteusen autehi.

.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

10. SECOND APPEARANCE


Mary Magdalene therefore was not with them when the other women together with Joanna and Mary of James had gone to the sepulchre again where . . .


Matthew 28:5a

. . . answered the angel the women and explained to them...

. . .ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ ὁ ἄγγελος εἶπε ταῖς γυναιξί·

. . .appokritheis de ho anggelos eipen tais gunaiksin:


Fear not ye:

Μὴ φοβεῖσθε ὑμεῖς·

Meh phobeisthe humeis!


for I know that ye seek Jesus which was crucified.

οἶδα γὰρ ὅτι Ἰησοῦν τὸν ἐσταυρωμένον ζητεῖτε·

Oida gar hoti Iehsoun ton estaurohmenon dzehteite.

6

He is not here because he was raised as he said.

οὐκ ἔστιν ὧδε· ἠγέρθη γὰρ καθὼς εἶπε.

Ouk estin hohde; ehgertheh gar kathohs eipen.


Come in! See the place where the Lord lay.

δεῦτε ἴδετε τὸν τόπον ὅπου ἔκειτο ὁ Κύριος.

Deute idete ton topon hopou ekeito.

7

Indeed rather, Go quickly and tell his disciples

καὶ ταχὺ πορευθεῖσαι εἴπατε τοῖς μαθηταῖς αὐτοῦ

Kai tachu poreutheisai eipate tois mathehtais autou


that he was raised and is risen from the dead!

ὅτι ἠγέρθη ἀπὸ τῶν νεκρῶν,

hoti ehgertheh apo tohn nekrohn.


And behold, he goeth before you into Galilee;

καὶ ἰδοὺ προάγει ὑμᾶς εἰς τὴν Γαλιλαίαν·

Kai idou proagei humahs eis tehn Galilaian,


there will you see him.

ἐκεῖ αὐτὸν ὄψεσθε·

ekei auton opsesthe.


Behold, I command you!

ἰδοὺ εἶπον ὑμῖν.

Idou eipon humihn!

8

And they departed quickly from the sepulchre

καὶ ἐξελθοῦσαι ταχὺ ἀπὸ τοῦ μνημείου

Kai apelthousai tachu apo tou mnehmeiou


with fear and great joy

μετὰ φόβου καὶ χαρᾶς μεγάλης

meta phobou kai charahs megalehs.


and did run to bring his disciples word.

ἔδραμον ἀπαγγεῖλαι τοῖς μαθηταῖς αὐτοῦ.

edramon apangeilai tois mathehtais autou.

9

And as they went to tell his disciples,

ὡς δὲ ἐπορεύοντο ἀπαγγεῖλαι τοῖς μαθηταῖς αὐτοῦ,

Hohs de eporeuonto appangeilai tois mathehtais autou:


behold, Jesus met them, saying,

καὶ ἰδοὺ Ἰησοῦς ἀπήντησεν αὐταῖς

Kai idou Iehsous hupehntehsen autais


Hail, joy!

λέγων· Χαίρετε.

legohn: Chairete!


And they came and held him by the feet

αἱ δὲ προσελθοῦσαι ἐκράτησαν αὐτοῦ τοὺς πόδας

Hai de proselthousai ekratehsen autou tous podas


and worshipped him.

καὶ προσεκύνησαν αὐτῷ.

kai prosekunehsan autohi.

10

Then said Jesus unto them,

τότε λέγει αὐταῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς·

Tote legei autais ho Iehsous:


Be not afraid : Go!

Μὴ φοβεῖσθε· ὑπάγετε

Meh phobeisthe! Hupagete


Tell my brethren

ἀπαγγείλατε τοῖς ἀδελφοῖς μου

appangeilate tois adelphois mou


that they go into Galilee; there will they find Me.

ἵνα ἀπέλθωσιν εἰς τὴν Γαλιλαίαν, κἀκεῖ με ὄψονται.

hina appelthousin eis tehn Galilaian; kakei me opsontai.

23 07 15

 

[Hark]

Are you still trying to work out something to lead into a point you are trying to make about the sabbath day? I mean, if this whole dissecting the scripture going back to the Greek to get what you want to lead into your point about the sabbath day, then may I ask a question towards that end result?

What was Jesus talking about in how the disciples were blameless for not keeping the sabbath day? Can you answer that?

Matthew 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. 3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; 4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? 6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Now if this thread isn't about proving your P.O.V. in this thread that will lead into the point of the sabbath day, then just disregard this question.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Hark though angels singing, Hark before had decided, that if GE was "~trying to work out something to lead into a point ... about the sabbath day~", his patience, like Vooks', has reached its end....

By the way, the context here and the "~point~" of discussion here, have been with regard to the visits implied in Mark 16. Not with regard to Matthew 12 which is more than halfway the relevant chapter 28 of Matthew, back.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Are you still trying to work out something to lead into a point you are trying to make about the sabbath day? I mean, if this whole dissecting the scripture going back to the Greek to get what you want to lead into your point about the sabbath day, then may I ask a question towards that end result?

What was Jesus talking about in how the disciples were blameless for not keeping the sabbath day? Can you answer that?

Matthew 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. 3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; 4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? 6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Now if this thread isn't about proving your P.O.V. in this thread that will lead into the point of the sabbath day, then just disregard this question.

Dear Hark, what seems obviously likely to you, just may be exactly observed and deduced by yourself, NOT FROM ME, BUT, FROM “~this whole dissecting the scripture going back to the Greek~”. YES! “~this whole dissecting the scripture going back to the Greek~” has been what led you, yea, has brought you “~into your point about the sabbath day~”. “~this whole dissecting the scripture going back to the Greek~” is what has forced you “trying to make … your point … about the sabbath day~” and ask your “~question towards that end result~”. Correctly observed dear Hark! You ARE seeing the light in the end of the tunnel YOU had dug for yourself to escape from that very “~point~” and “~end result~” about the Sabbath, which you inevitably cannot at this stage simply “~disregard~” because “~this whole dissecting the scripture going back to the Greek~” allows you no turning back in your tunnel. You will just have to press on forward to the “~end result~” where the Sabbath promises you to escape into the full daylight of “The Lord’s Day”—the very day He arose “IN THE END OF THE SABBATH IN THE VERY DAYLIGHT MIDST-INCLINING as it began to dawn towards the First Day of the week.”—‘Opse de sabbatohn tehi epiphohskousehi eis Mian sabbatohn’.


What risk does disregarding this point about the end result of “~this whole dissecting the scripture going back to the Greek~” hold!

 

[Hark]

Hark though angels singing, Hark before had decided, that if GE was "~trying to work out something to lead into a point ... about the sabbath day~", his patience, like Vooks', has reached its end....

By the way, the context here and the "~point~" of discussion here, have been with regard to the visits implied in Mark 16. Not with regard to Matthew 12 which is more than halfway the relevant chapter 28 of Matthew, back.

I was asking if the point of this thread was a tie in to something about the sabbath, but if it wasn't, then ignore the question.

But if you wish to be witty about it at my expense, I can't blame you. The discussion in this thread does seem to get rather heated and temptations to bite and devour has been present. I shall withdraw. Thanks, anyway.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

You just can't see it

Matthew 28:9-10 (KJV)
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. 10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.

Of the women's three visits to the tomb, which one was this?
(a) First
(b) Second
(c) Third


No need for silly glib, just pick one answer and we will take it up from there. Method, get methodical for once in your life

Dear Vooks,
Matthew 28:9-10 (KJV)
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. 10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me......

.....IS, NO, "~visit... to the tomb~" AND, IS, NONE "~Of the women's visits to the tomb~" AND, IS NONE OF
"~(a) First
(b) Second
(c) Third~"

 

[Hark]

Dear Hark, what seems obviously likely to you, just may be exactly observed and deduced by yourself, NOT FROM ME, BUT, FROM “~this whole dissecting the scripture going back to the Greek~”. YES! “~this whole dissecting the scripture going back to the Greek~” has been what led you, yea, has brought you “~into your point about the sabbath day~”. “~this whole dissecting the scripture going back to the Greek~” is what has forced you “trying to make … your point … about the sabbath day~” and ask your “~question towards that end result~”. Correctly observed dear Hark! You ARE seeing the light in the end of the tunnel YOU had dug for yourself to escape from that very “~point~” and “~end result~” about the Sabbath, which you inevitably cannot at this stage simply “~disregard~” because “~this whole dissecting the scripture going back to the Greek~” allows you no turning back in your tunnel. You will just have to press on forward to the “~end result~” where the Sabbath promises you to escape into the full daylight of “The Lord’s Day”—the very day He arose “IN THE END OF THE SABBATH IN THE VERY DAYLIGHT MIDST-INCLINING as it began to dawn towards the First Day of the week.”—‘Opse de sabbatohn tehi epiphohskousehi eis Mian sabbatohn’.


What risk does disregarding this point about the end result of “~this whole dissecting the scripture going back to the Greek~” hold!

Another cheap shot, brother. I forgive you.

I have tried to respond to the points in your reply but you do seem to want to avoid Matthew 12:1-8 .

When you want to discuss it, feel free to start a thread, and hopefully I shall spot it and join in to see your P.O.V. on it as to why it does not affect your sabbath day theology, but I'm not going to pressure you on it if you do not want to discuss that now or that you do not have an answer for it yet or something.

My point about dissecting the scripture in going back to the Greek is that any one can avoid what is plainly written in English and just go to the Greek words to find one of the definitions to their liking or to their theology.

If there was a question between Bible versions, that is one thing, but if you had a version of the Bible that supports what you are saying as true, you would not need to go back to the Greek words to make your case.

If the Bible version you are using does not support your point that you have to go to the Greek to translate it yourself, you may want to prayerfully reconsider your point or at the very least, how you are going about it.

Take for example one contention that I have; as I see no Bible version being clear about the meaning of this verse; not even the KJV.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. KJV

If you go to this link to compare the Greek words in the Greek texts mirroring the Revelation 3:5 in English.

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B66C003.htm

And click on the Greek words " ov un " which you will find at the end of the first Greek line mirroring that verse, you would find this definition.

i.e. ou - ou 3756 and mh - me 3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all:--any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare mh ouk - me ouk 3378.

It would give weight to Revelation 3:5 as a promise that this was something Jesus would never do, but I think no translator dares to add to His words of that actual meaning because of the warning in Revelation about adding to His words in that book, even though "not" falls short of the actual meaning in English even though its meaning should be clear in Greek. This point would lead into OSAS, but that's another topic. I was just sharing this as an example as in this case, I had no recourse; no other Bible version to get that actual meaning.

But I do not believe that is the case for you. I tried to see why you felt you had no recourse, but when you go translate everything, it just comes across as avoiding what is plainly written in all the English Bible versions.

Anyway, I'm just trying to be civil about this in what you are trying to share or minister about. I mean, it is hard enough trying to harmonize all the gospel event surrounding the resurrection with what is just plain written in English, but if you have to go back to the Greek and translate it back to English, you will lose your audience.

Ever heard the saying, "Missing the forest for all the trees"? Well, I think readers are going to miss your point for all this back and forth translation.

Just saying. Mayhap if you try a different approach in this thread, like something even children can follow, it might be better. That way you are trying to come across in a simple clear way without appealing to the intellectual capacity of only the college graduates and beyond.

Anyway, that's all I have to share with you on this thread. I did learn that there are two visits mentioned in Mark 16th chapter where I had only saw one, and so in that respect, you are correct, but I have not agreed with you in other things. Thanks for your time, patience, and sharing.

 

[rstrats]

re: " Luke talks of another visit by Peter, because for one thing, he doesn't mention John."

Actually, none of the accounts mention John.

 

[rstrats]

vooks,

re: "Could you please show us from the scriptures using any version of your choice a single trip the women made to the tomb where they never encountered angel(s)..."

Mary's trip to the tomb in John 20:1-2 doesn't mention any angels. It says she arrives at the tomb, sees the stone removed and then goes and tells Peter that the Messiah has been taken and that she doesn't know where He is. However, Matthew and Mark say that Mary was told that the Messiah had risen and would be seen in Galilee. In the John account she didn't know any of that but in the Matthew and Mark accounts she does. So it may be safe to say that if an angel had been present in the John 20 visit that it didn't give Mary that information.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Another cheap shot, brother. I forgive you.

I have tried to respond to the points in your reply but you do seem to want to avoid Matthew 12:1-8 .

When you want to discuss it, feel free to start a thread, and hopefully I shall spot it and join in to see your P.O.V. on it as to why it does not affect your sabbath day theology, but I'm not going to pressure you on it if you do not want to discuss that now or that you do not have an answer for it yet or something.

My point about dissecting the scripture in going back to the Greek is that any one can avoid what is plainly written in English and just go to the Greek words to find one of the definitions to their liking or to their theology.

If there was a question between Bible versions, that is one thing, but if you had a version of the Bible that supports what you are saying as true, you would not need to go back to the Greek words to make your case.

If the Bible version you are using does not support your point that you have to go to the Greek to translate it yourself, you may want to prayerfully reconsider your point or at the very least, how you are going about it.

Take for example one contention that I have; as I see no Bible version being clear about the meaning of this verse; not even the KJV.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. KJV

If you go to this link to compare the Greek words in the Greek texts mirroring the Revelation 3:5 in English.

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B66C003.htm

And click on the Greek words " ov un " which you will find at the end of the first Greek line mirroring that verse, you would find this definition.



It would give weight to Revelation 3:5 as a promise that this was something Jesus would never do, but I think no translator dares to add to His words of that actual meaning because of the warning in Revelation about adding to His words in that book, even though "not" falls short of the actual meaning in English even though its meaning should be clear in Greek. This point would lead into OSAS, but that's another topic. I was just sharing this as an example as in this case, I had no recourse; no other Bible version to get that actual meaning.

But I do not believe that is the case for you. I tried to see why you felt you had no recourse, but when you go translate everything, it just comes across as avoiding what is plainly written in all the English Bible versions.

Anyway, I'm just trying to be civil about this in what you are trying to share or minister about. I mean, it is hard enough trying to harmonize all the gospel event surrounding the resurrection with what is just plain written in English, but if you have to go back to the Greek and translate it back to English, you will lose your audience.

Ever heard the saying, "Missing the forest for all the trees"? Well, I think readers are going to miss your point for all this back and forth translation.

Just saying. Mayhap if you try a different approach in this thread, like something even children can follow, it might be better. That way you are trying to come across in a simple clear way without appealing to the intellectual capacity of only the college graduates and beyond.

Anyway, that's all I have to share with you on this thread. I did learn that there are two visits mentioned in Mark 16th chapter where I had only saw one, and so in that respect, you are correct, but I have not agreed with you in other things. Thanks for your time, patience, and sharing.

My “~cheap shot~” has been Scripture—nothing than precise Text and translation of Text according to the KJV and myself.


SHOW one deviation from my claim before you call THE SCRIPTURES a “~cheap shot~”!


And don’t make your every post in one single thread discussion, a showcase of your total ignorance as far as knowledge and understanding of both the Scriptures and the Greek Text are concerned!

 

[vooks]

vooks,

re: "Could you please show us from the scriptures using any version of your choice a single trip the women made to the tomb where they never encountered angel(s)..."

Mary's trip to the tomb in John 20:1-2 doesn't mention any angels. It says she arrives at the tomb, sees the stone removed and then goes and tells Peter that the Messiah has been taken and that she doesn't know where He is. However, Matthew and Mark say that Mary was told that the Messiah had risen and would be seen in Galilee. In the John account she didn't know any of that but in the Matthew and Mark accounts she does. So it may be safe to say that if an angel had been present in the John 20 visit that it didn't give Mary that information.

Please learn to read questions first before embarrassing yourself.

I asked of WOMEN not WOMAN. Not sure if English is your first, second or tenth language but you surely ought to understand plural or else you should go back to school.

Gerhard insists WOMEN made three trips in a span of 6 hours. This is besides Mary's trip(s)

 

[vooks]

Dear Vooks,
Matthew 28:9-10 (KJV)
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. 10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me......

.....IS, NO, "~visit... to the tomb~" AND, IS, NONE "~Of the women's visits to the tomb~" AND, IS NONE OF
"~(a) First
(b) Second
(c) Third~"

Dear Gerhard,
If this is not a visit to the tomb, what is it? What constitutes a visit to the tomb?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

vooks,

re: "Could you please show us from the scriptures using any version of your choice a single trip the women made to the tomb where they never encountered angel(s)..."

Mary's trip to the tomb in John 20:1-2 doesn't mention any angels. It says she arrives at the tomb, sees the stone removed and then goes and tells Peter that the Messiah has been taken and that she doesn't know where He is. However, Matthew and Mark say that Mary was told that the Messiah had risen and would be seen in Galilee. In the John account she didn't know any of that but in the Matthew and Mark accounts she does. So it may be safe to say that if an angel had been present in the John 20 visit that it didn't give Mary that information.

Mary's trip to the tomb in John 20:1-2 doesn't mention any angels, so there were no angels, not hidden from or appearing to her. Unless the Text said there were angels, there were no angels.


John 20:1-2 does not say Mary Magdalene “~arrives at the tomb~”. RStrats says it contrary John 20:1-2. John 20:1,2 says “Mary Magdalene _comes towards_ the tomb, sees the stone [lying] having been thrown out of and away from the tomb, then therefore she runs …” away, back to where she went out to the tomb from. She did not reach or arrive at the tomb—, what entered it, what saw that the body was gone! Stop writing your own gospel, you’re no apostle!


Mary Magdalene thus had gone back and told Peter and John WHAT SHE THOUGHT had happened with Jesus’ body. She told them no reality or fact, “~that the Messiah has been taken~”. That is you, RStrats, again telling; not John or Mary.


From what Mary Magdalene had actually spoken to Peter and John, you’re right, “~that she d(id)n't know where He (wa)s”.


And nothing “~However~”. That again, is you, RStrats, saying, “~However Matthew and Mark say that Mary was told that the Messiah had risen and would be seen in Galilee.~” In John 20:1,2 Mary was told NOTHING “~that the Messiah had risen and would be seen in Galilee.~” NOTHING! That is you, RStrats again, falsely alleging,


Therefore, yes, “~In the John account she didn't know any of that~” because there happened nothing of that in the John account at that time at or in or near or away from the grave!


Therefore yes, “~Mary was told that the Messiah had risen and would be seen in Galilee~” in the Mark account in 16:2-8. Not in the Matthew account.


So it is certain, that in the John 20:1,2 story before the two men went to check up Mary’s story, no angel had been present but in the John 20:11-17 story, Mary Magdalene had spoken to two angels rather than they to her while they only asked her one question why she cried, while she informed them on all her fears and anxieties.


Crux of the matter, The Gospels’ are each different stories but not differing stories of different events at different times experienced by different people at or on different exact places under different circumstances during different phases and stages during the evening of Saturday night and the morning after Saturday night—, all climaxing in the two events of Jesus’ TWO APPEARANCES, the first one “early on Sunday morning to Mary Magdalene, first” in John 20:11-17 and Mark 16:9; and shortly after on the same Sunday morning, Jesus’ second APPEARANCE to the other women in Matthew 28:5-17.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Dear Gerhard,
If this is not a visit to the tomb, what is it? What constitutes a visit to the tomb?

You are referring Matthew 28:8-9. It tells of the women other than Mary's, last visit AFTER WHICH and while they were walking to Jerusalem, Jesus met them not at the tomb but away from the tomb. Mary was not present because Jesus had appeared to her alone, "first" (in John 20:11-17 and Mark 16:9). Note that also in this account, nobody saw Jesus rise or come out of the tomb, But the story tells Jesus approached Mary at the tomb from the direction of the garden away of the tomb.

It's so simple, NO story of whatever happened "on the First Day of the week", tells that Jesus actually rose from the dead and grave. The ONLY story of the CIRCUMSTANCES AND TIME that Jesus actually rose, "the angel of the Lord ANSWERED" the women's every question and doubt about in Matthew 28:1-4. Nowhere else in the Gospels. There are people who pretend they know better and tell stories of Mary and other followers / disciples of Jesus who SAW Jesus arising inside and coming out of the tomb, Like Jakob Lorber and E.G. White -- both who claimed they were inspired by the Holy Spirit to tell their lies for the Gospel truth.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Please learn to read questions first before embarrassing yourself.

I asked of WOMEN not WOMAN. Not sure if English is your first, second or tenth language but you surely ought to understand plural or else you should go back to school.

Gerhard insists WOMEN made three trips in a span of 6 hours. This is besides Mary's trip(s)

If I may answer myself . . . Read my synopsis of the COMPLETE Text verse by verse, which I have posted several times now already. Goodness, what can I do more? Read the Gospels and read them together where they are together and also where they are not together, but alone on this or that point in some places. But read them in chronological historical ORDER. No one including myself can do better than let the Gospels / Gospel writers tell the whole story themselves.

 

[vooks]

If I may answer myself . . . Read my synopsis of the COMPLETE Text verse by verse, which I have posted several times now already. Goodness, what can I do more? Read the Gospels and read them together where they are together and also where they are not together, but alone on this or that point in some places. But read them in chronological historical ORDER. No one including myself can do better than let the Gospels / Gospel writers tell the whole story themselves.

I don't want your bipolar schizophrenic 'synopsis', just a simple 'it is written....'

You should quote portions of scriptures showing women visiting the tomb and back without no angels at all.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I don't want your bipolar schizophrenic 'synopsis', just a simple 'it is written....'

You should quote portions of scriptures showing women visiting the tomb and back without no angels at all.

SHOW where my "~bipolar schizophrenic 'synopsis'~" is not "~just a simple 'it is written~". Come on, let us see where or how, now Vooks! SHOW it!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I don't want your bipolar schizophrenic 'synopsis', just a simple 'it is written....'

You should quote portions of scriptures showing women visiting the tomb and back without no angels at all.

And for what must I "~quote portions of scriptures showing women visiting the tomb and back without no angels at all~"?
Why me?
Who claimed there were or were not any visits "~showing women visiting the tomb and back without no angels~"?!

Why you demand of me, to answer your totally senseless, baseless and needless question?

. . . AFTER I have several times placed the FULL TEXTUAL ACCOUNT of every and all TEN visits ever made to and or at the tomb?