Mark:

Larry,

If you can post these words: Third, I am not rebuking Graham (and never brougth up Falwell in this thread). I am speaking to the fact that Graham has been disobedient and has probably compromised the gospel....

and NOT see that you are being unChristian in your attacks on Billy Graham, it will not do any good to continue talking to you about this.

The fact is, Graham has NOT been disobedient to God. For the majority of his life, even when he was dieing, the man did his best to win souls to Christ. He has followed the great commission.

You bring up the people who "didn't attend church afterwards." How do you know they didn't? How do you know that their salvation wasn't real just because they didn't play by the "go to church every time the doors open" theory you listed?

If this is reason enough to condemn Graham, surely you yourself, and any other living Christian is condemend. I know I've taught where the seed has not taken root, just as I've taught where it has. At least I did what the commission said to do.

And if you're going to accuse him of "compromising the gospel," you best stand up and show WHERE he did, verse by verse. Because I truly question you and your intentions.

And where are your sermons and teachings that we may judge you as harshly as you have judged this great man of God?

How does making remarks like accusing him of compromising the gospel serve God? Does it give the message of Christ to anyone? That is change Graham in any way? Does it show love? Does it even correct what you think he was wrong about?

No - it JUST condemns.

And you don't have the right. You haven't earned the right because you CAN'T earn the right.

Remember where they said, "Lord, that man is casting out demons in your name, and he isn't one of us, make him stop," and Christ said, "Let him be!"

Well, LET GRAHAM BE.

More people heard the love of Christ because Graham preached it in football stadiums than ever heard it by coming to this board and reading that Pastor Larry thinks Graham compromised it.

 

Av - Larry -

When was the last time on this board you said something encouraging to a fellow Christian?

When was the last time on this board you said something uplifting and supportive of a fellow Christian?

When was the last time on this board you used scripture to defend a statement you made, by actually posting it in context?

When was the last time you worried as much about preaching the word of Christ as you did about defending or condemning?

Av - generalizations? You've made numerous cracks and comments about me in this thread. Not a single one of them fitting of a scriptual method of correction if you truly thought I was wrong.

You've ignored the scriptures posted, going for personal attacks on me rather than address them.

And you expect me to take you seriously?

In my eyes, you've set yourself up above Christ, by setting yourself up as a judge of Christ's servants.

If the bible doesn't teach love and forgiveness, what did Christ die for?

If the bible doesn't teach love and forgiveness, why SHOULD we follow him?

 

Av,

And here we are again "one sided doctorine".

I have posted from Matthew, Mark and Luke showing the words of Christ himself, in chapter after chapter after chapter. I've posted from James, Romans, Hebrews and Galations.

I am accused of "one sided doctorine."

YOu have posted name calling insults, accusations of one-sidedness and not a single scripture.

Gee, I feel so .. convicted to follow your God of judgment and hate. (rolls my eyes)

Did you ever read Job?

Fascinating book.
Satan goes to God and says, "That person doesn't REALLY love you."
God says, "Sure they do."
Satan goes, "No, really, really they don't."
God says, "Yes, the do."
Satan says, "Well that is just cuz you're protecting him."
God says, "I'll remove my protections."
And Satan tries, oh how he tries, to make the man say that he doesn't love God, just so Satan can go back to God and say, "AHA! SEE!"

Well, Av, that's how you come across to me right now. Sitting there trying to convince me that God is NOT loving, God is NOT forgiving, God did NOT condemn legalism, God DID approve attacking fellow Christians, God DOESN'T want love taught.

Av - do you know who does NOT want love taught?

Satan doesn't.

Teaching love scares Satan.

Teaching legalism is fine with Satan.
Teaching judgment is fine with Satan.

Those things turn people from God.
The Pharisees and Saducees LOVED to preach those things.

Satan taught Adam and Eve, "Go ahead! Eat it! You'll be like God! You'll know right from wrong!"

And Adam and Eve fell for it.

Don't fall for it Av.
DON'T fall for the same tempation Adam and Eve fell for.

 

In the time I've been posting this thread, I just re-read, literally, Matthew to Revelation. I found a few places in the new testament where Paul says that if you've got a brother sinning, and you go to him, and in Christian love, talk to him about it, and then bring him to others in the church and try to talk to him about it, and he ignores you, to expel him from the fellowship.

That's the closest thing I find to this so called "god given authority" to judge and play God.

It doesn't quite hold up the way you present it, against, "Thou shalt not judge," and "do not judge." But hey, what did Christ know? He was just the Christ.

 

Av -

I posted scriptures in context throughout the whole word of God. You accuse me of twisting, I posted them as they are written, in context.

You've posted NOTHING.

Name calling? You just accused me of twisting scripture.

You say one side? Frankly, I just don't SEE two sides to an arguement that says man has the right to judge when the bible says, "Judgement is mine sayeth the Lord."

And when it flat out says, "You don't have the right to judge the Master's servants," I REALLY think its a one-sided arguement.

But you go ahead, and post the scriptures that say you have the authority to judge in God's place. I'm listening.

 

The bottom line, is you WANT to judge other people. You WANT to look down on them.

You seem to delight in feeling you have the authority to.

The attitude is proof that it isn't of Christ.

Ever seen a Christian who was close to God have to correct a brother or sister in Christ? It breaks their heart! They usually weep when they find out about the sin! They pray! They ask God to give the words! They ask God to help the brother or sister.

They go in love and say, "How can I help you through this?"

If there is no love in the rebuke, it isn't from God.

 

A challenge to anyone who thinks I am taking them out of context. Go in and read the entire book of the gospel that contains the scripture I referenced.

If I can read Matthew to Revelation in a few hours, you can read just one book in a few hours.

If you think I'm twisting them - read them Chapter 1 verse 1 to the end of the book.

Forget your commentaries and your devotionals that pull them out and organize them for you.

Read God's word the way it was written.

 

Av,

This thread is proof of my accusations. You say much more with actions than you ever do with statements.

You've asked me for proof. I offer your eagerness to hope in and accuse me of twisting scripture.

Now, I ask you. Where is YOUR proof? Where are the scriptures? Where is God's word?

If I twisted scripture when I posted the words of James, show me what James "really" said and what he "really meant."

Stop calling me names and use God's word to stand up to the line of accountability.

Read God's word, Av.

In context.
The whole book you question.

I BEG you to do that.

I absolutely BEG you to. If you want to ready Romans, read ALL of Romans. If you want to read Hebrews, read ALL of Hebrews.

Just ask God to show you the truth of His word and READ. He promised that if you hunger and thirst after righteousness you will be filled.

So ask him for it and read it.

 

Pastor Larry,

I will retract that you said Graham was lost, since it seems that this was a remark made by someone else. I truly believed it came from you.

I do not, though, retract the statements regarding what you DID say about Graham.

That said you did NOT present "false doctorine" you accused someone of presenting false doctorine without showing anything to support your claim. I hold to my stance that this is unChristian and unacceptable in the eyes of God.

Love DOES stand above correction. I didn't say that, CHRIST did.

 

AV, I'm not deflecting.

You did indeed "call names" when you made accusations of twisting scripture that you cannot back up.

I stand by my word.

 

You said: He has said that people might get to heaven without faith in Christ. He has said taht baby baptism does something spiritually regenerative for babies. Those are all clear examples of disobedience and compromise on teh part of Graham.

I don't believe that.
I've listened to Dr. Graham for years. I've studied his books for years. I have NEVER once heard him make the statements attributed to him, and I don't believe for a minute he did say them.