Marks of a Cult

Bob Ryan said...

And I do to. I know some catholics whom I am as confident of their salvation as my own. And i am proud to call them my brothers and sisters.

I usually think of it as brothers and sisters in the catholic demom who found Christ in spite of the CC, rather than because of it.

I'm glad any time someone finds Christ...I dont care what group they are in.

God bless,

Mike

 

Mee ,I can understand on a Baptist only forum not allowing certain links that are not pro Baptist.
I cannot understand that being the case on a "Other Religion" forum unless there is a good reason that I can't figure out.
One of the purposes of an " Other religion" fourm is to learn about religions that are not other wise studied and examined.
Nobody has to agree with a link but it is good to know things that are outside ones comfort zone.

 

You also agree that you will not post links in our message boards that try to persuade others against Christianity.
Baptist Board User Agreement

 

I agree atestring, but I was told that I could discuss the Oneness of God, but not to post links! They consider the belief in "The Oneness of God" as going against the Trinity.

Doesn't make sense, does it? It is a BB and I suppose when you are in Rome....you do as the Romans do.

MEE

 

Interesting. One of the beliefs of the traditional "trinitarian" concept of God is that there is ONE God...not 3.

Yet some who proclaim the "oneness" of God are condemned.

Now, I would agree if someone where denying the deity of Christ, or the diety of the Holy Spirit that we would have a huge problem...but those are not denied. At least not by the person I was referring to in my post. He didnt even claim to be a "oneness pentecostal".

He just wasnt comfortable with the word "person" in all applications.

Good thing we arent burning people at the stake these days...

"I LIKE THE WRONG WORD!!! NO!!!!!!!"

God bless,

Mike

 

Even in my own little explanation, it says:

within the nature of the one God there are three eternal beings, Father Son and Holy Ghost.

I'm saying One God, so what is wrong with someone believing there is only one God?

Do you believe there is more than one????




Tam

 

I agree atestring, but I was told that I could discuss the Oneness of God, but not to post links! They consider the belief in "The Oneness of God" as going against the Trinity.

Doesn't make sense, does it? It is a BB and I suppose when you are in Rome....you do as the Romans do.

MEE </font>[/QUOTE]this confuses me since Oneness believe in the deity of Jesus. The Bible says that noone can call Jesus Lord but By the Holy Spirit. I have never known of a Oneness that did not believe in the Deity of Jesus. I have never met a Oneness that did not love Jesus. I used to work with Lots of Oneness. These men were great Christians and would have given me the shirt off their backs. ( There was one that I am not sure if I would have wanted his shirt.)
Not being oneness I was not treated as inferior to them. I had some discussion about this but mostly we were just friends and co workers.

There are those that call Oneness Pentecostals a cult. To be fair ,they should not be able to post links that make such a serious accusation since this is a "OTHER RELIGION" forum.

 

Tamborine lady,

Oh oh. You better run for the hills.

You said "beings" and not "persons".

They'll be coming for you!

God bless,

Mike

 

QUESTION?

If those who believe that God consists of 'three persons,' let me ask a question....because I'm still trying to understand the doctrine of the Trinity.

If you could look into heaven, would you see three persons talking to each other? Or, when you pray do you talk to each of them?.... as in sometimes you talk to the Father, then possibly to Jesus, or maybe to the Holy Spirit?

MEE

 

But both Catholicism and Protestantism tolerate the cultists. For example, the Marian cultists have not been expelled from the Roman Catholic Church and the Baptist Board permits the Modalist cultists to post on a debate forum that is supposedly open only to Christians.

 

But both Catholicism and Protestantism tolerate the cultists. For example, the Marian cultists have not been expelled from the Roman Catholic Church and the Baptist Board permits the Modalist cultists to post on a debate forum that is supposedly open only to Christians. </font>[/QUOTE]John, just what makes you think that Modalists aren't Christians? They repent, are baptized, have the baptism of the Spirit of God, and lead a good clean Christian life, which is required.

That being said, I don't think you have the right to call them "Modalist cultists." If you think you do, then put all of the "Disciples of Christ" in the same category!

MEE

 

First, the problem is that you are trying to understand something (the very nature of God) which is beyond searching out.

Job 11:7 "Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?"

Isa 40:28 "Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding."

One does not understand the Trinity, one believes it.

Secondly, God the father is invisible (Jn 1:18, 1 Tim 1:17), so He can't be seen. There are, however, many examples of the Father talking to the Son and the Son talking to the Father. There is also the example of the baptism of Jesus, where the Father spoke from Heaven, the Son was getting wet, and the Spirit was descending in the form of a dove (Mat 3:16-17).

 

Interesting. One of the beliefs of the traditional "trinitarian" concept of God is that there is ONE God...not 3.

Yet some who proclaim the "oneness" of God are condemned.

Now, I would agree if someone where denying the deity of Christ, or the diety of the Holy Spirit that we would have a huge problem...but those are not denied. At least not by the person I was referring to in my post. He didnt even claim to be a "oneness pentecostal".

He just wasnt comfortable with the word "person" in all applications.

Good thing we arent burning people at the stake these days...

"I LIKE THE WRONG WORD!!! NO!!!!!!!"

God bless,

Mike </font>[/QUOTE]It depends on what he meant by the "Oneness of God." Yes, God is one but the Trinity affirms that there are co-equal, distinct, eternal Persons (you can also say "Beings" -- I do) in the Godhead.

To deny the Trinity is heresy; it is not Christian. The Trinity is a confession of the historic Christian faith and is based on the Bible (even though the word is not used; the principle is taught). Modalism was condemned as a heresy by the early church.

Many cults deny the Trinity: Mormons and JW's are 2 examples, though their denials differ from the Oneness view. Oneness Pentecostals and Oneness groups are another. They affirm the deity of Christ but also believe he and the HS are all the same being. To deny the trinity is a heresy of the nature of God and nature of Christ and was an early heresy called Sabellianism.

Some oneness groups (particularly in the UPC -- the United Pentecostal Church) also believe you must be baptized only in the name of Jesus or you are not saved and you must initially speak in tongues or you are not saved.

I think precisely because the Oneness groups affirm the deity of Christ, God's word, etc. their beliefs are all the more dangerously deceptive.

I've already been in a discussion on this in another thread and don't have time to do it all over again. Here are some links from Christian ministries on this topic:
Questions and Answers on Oneness
Oneness Profile
Heresies Then and Now

Sabellianism: Third and Twentieth Century Heresy

The classic Oneness statement of faith is that God "manifested" as 3 Persons. Sometimes it will say the belief is in the "Triune" God, but is not meaning the trinity. Some Christians inadvertently or on purpose (so as not to offend or alienate)will use these same statements. I clearly affirm the Trinity on my website's statement of faith.

 

This seems unfair sinced Mee can't post any links!

 

Links are allowed on the BB with certain restrictions, and I do thank Mee for erring on the side of caution.
If one is attempting to promote another religion on the board and links to another site in order to do so, that is not allowed. Linking to sites that contain language or other things not allowed on the BB should not be posted. (especially keeping in mind the many readers under 18 we have on here) Also, linking in order to advertise will also result in editing. It is common internet curtesy to not link another message board on the one you are posting at without the Webmaster's specific ok.
However, in studying a subject there should be no problem in linking to a site that contains information on the subject being studied, simply make sure it is an appropriate site and not one that would lead new Christians or young readers in the wrong direction. (as in a proseletizing site)
Is that all clear as mud for you now?
Gina

 

Don't worry about it atestring! They didn't believe the Lord either.

BTW atestring, after reading one of Marcia's links, have you ever heard anyone that spoke in tongues for the very 'FIRST TIME' call it the "gift of tongues?"

MEE

 

Marcia,

Could you show me in the scripture, and the scriptures alone, where we are told that?

I am no more interested in the traditions of protestant men than I am the traditions of catholic men. I am interested in the truth of God found in the scriptures.

I am not asking you to show me scriptures that prove there is one God. I am not asking you to show me the passages that promote the truth of God the Son, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit. I am also not asking you to show me the scriptures that prove that they are 3 persons, who sometimes interact with each other.

I am a full blown trinitarian, and I am aware of all the declarations of God regarding those truths, and I believe the trinitarian interpretations of the passages are the proper interpretations.

I am asking you to show me the passages of scripture that support the idea that....

1) We must acknwledge the doctrine know as "The Trinity", using those words.

Or...

2) We must acknowledge that God is triune in nature, and consists of 3 persons, (specifically using that word) constituting the one God.

I know of scriptures that say if we deny the Son, we have not the Father. I am aware that if we deny that "Jesus is Lord" we do not know the Father. And there are even times when the triune nature of God is either shown (the Baptism of Christ) or clearly articulated. (In 1 John 5. "There are 3 that bear witness in heaven, etc)

I only want you to show me where in the scriptures...and the scriptures alone please, I am not interested in the traditions of men....we are told that if someone does not articulate or understand the triune nature of God in the specific way you are articulating it, they are not christians. They do not know God and will not go to heaven.

I agree 100% with that. The triune nature of the one God. The diety of Christ, the Father, and the Holy Spirit. I agree with you completly.

But you are going beyond that. You are saying that it must be understood, articulated, and propagated in the specific way, and using the specific words and phrases that you are using.

I want you to prove to me from Gods scriptures alone...I am a "sola scriptura" guy...that the concept must be understood and articulated using the precise words you are using, or they do not know God and are not christians.(saved)

And I am with you completly regarding both the JW's and Mormons. I am not argueing regarding those situations. I am referring to people who acknowledge...

The diety of God the Father

The diety of God the Son

The diety of God the Holy Spirit

And the triune nature of God.

They simply are more comfortable with a particular word (manifestations) rather than another word. (persons)

I want you to prove to me that one is required to use the precise words that we use, and understand the triune nature of God in the precise way that we do...using only the scriptures of course...or they are lost.

In other words, not because some council of fallible men came up with it, not because Hank Hannegraph or some other apologetics group came up with it, not because long ago a group of men decided "this is orthodox". Men can be right, but they can be wrong. I do not care what men say is "orthodox", I care what God says is true.

The scriptures are what I am interested in.

Kind of like when we say "No, there is only one God" when we are accused of having 3 Gods?

And where is that word "Sabellianism" found in the scriptures, please?

Also, once again...I am not talking about people who deny the Triune nature of God. They acknowledge it. But they use a different word, and they understand the triune nature of God a bit differently.

Regarding the words used in water baptism, my understanding is that there is scriptural support for either "in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit", (the words I am the most comfortable with) or the words "In Jesus name".

Since there is scriptural support for either view, I believe its a matter of personal conviction.

And if you believe that baptising someone using "in the name of Jesus Christ" they are not saved, could you please show me from the scriptures alone where we are told that?

Regarding the speaking in toungues thing, I am a believer that that gift is still for today, but if they believe you must speak in toungues to be saved, I believe they are 100% in error in that area.

God bless,

Mike

[ June 13, 2004, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: D28guy ]

 

Marcia,

I forgot to comment on this...

You said...

I am actually unconcerned with what "the early church" said. We have no guarentee that anything "the early church" said is true or not. It is the scriptures, and only the scriptures that we are to turn, because it is only the scriptures that have Gods guarentee of truth.

The scriptures clearly teach that the idea that only God the Father is God, not Christ or the Holy Spirit, is completly false.

The scriptures also clearly teach that the idea that God was bouncing back and forth all the time...changing hats...between being the Father, then Jesus Christ, then the Holy Spirit, etc, is also completly false.

Jesus prayed to the Father. The Father verbally acknowledged the Son, etc.

The scriptures also clearly teach that if one does not acknowledge Jesus as Lord they are lost.

The scriptures also clearly teach that if one denies Christ, they do not know God.

There are lots of things that the scriptures clearly teach regarding these things.

But I have never read anywhere where the scriptures say the word "trinity" must be used regarding God. I have never read where we are told, clearly, the exact terminology that must be used in articulating or understanding the truth of the triune nature of God.

The only people who have been dogmatic in those ways are councils of men, long after Gods scriptures where completed. And we all know that "councils of men", even very very "religious" men, are capable of the most greivious and heretical doctrines ever known. Just look at some of the heresies spewed forth by "councils of men" in Roman Catholic robes.

We do not turn to "councils", the decisions of the "early church" or anywhere else of that nature for these matters. We turn to the scriptures and the scriptures alone.

God bless,

Mike

 

Marcia,

I hope you understand, we are having a "family" discussion...or disagreement..here. I certainly dont count you an enemy at all. You mentioned your "web-site" in a post, but didnt link it.

I'd love to check it out. I'm always looking for good sites to put in my favorites folder, to use as information sources in discussions.

Send me a link and I'll visit.

Blessings,

Mike

 

Mee said:

If you could look into heaven, would you see three persons talking to each other? Or, when you pray do you talk to each of them?.... as in sometimes you talk to the Father, then possibly to Jesus, or maybe to the Holy Spirit?

I don't know what I would see, but I pray to the Father, in the name of Jesus, by the leading of the Holy Ghost.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

And I think it was Bro. Tony that said "they" were going to be after me for saying beings instead of persons.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It doesn't matter, I've been in trouble before. And besides, it's my explanation and it makes sense to me and I like it!!!

Working for Jesus,

Tam