Marks of a Cult

No the Triune God concept is the idea of ONE Godhead THREE persons.

In Christ,

Bob

 

WE do not believe that God the Father "exercised power over God the Son and made Him die for our sins".

Rather we believe the clear text of Philipians 2 where we are told that Christ of His OWN free will CHOSE to "empty himself" and take on the form of a man. It was His character - that He did not see "equality with God a thing to be held on to at any cost to humanity". He willingly "humbled himself" according to the text. He "emptied himself" of that God-power that He held so that on earth He could "truthfully" claim "OF My OWNSELF I can do nothing".

Three "persons" - One Godhead. Neither one forcing the other to do their will.

Jesus Christ urges the point with the Father "NOT My will BUT Thy Will be done". The Character of God - the Character of Christ is selfless - unselfish - love that GIVES rather than enslaves.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Yes but this is found in John 14 - after John has already made in clear in chapter 1 that while Christ IS seen - the Father has never been seen. IT is the role of Christ to "reveal the Father" - because we can not see the Father - "no man has seen the Father at any time" John 1.

So Christ's statement in John 14 is one of unity between two persons - it is not a claim to BE that other person.

I agree Mike - they are using that statement in John 14 as a pretext without taking in all that scripture has to say on the "persons" of the Godhead.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Mee,

Mee, please consider the following passages of scriptures...

John 15:26...

"But when the Helper(the Holy Spirit) comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me."

And John 16: 13-15...

"However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak. And He will tell you things to come. He will glorify me, for He will take of what is mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you."

Notice that the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are all working in co-operation with one another. Nobody is "forcing" anyone to do anything. Bob posted the scripture that shows that Jesus Christ voluntarily chose to be the acceptable "sin offering" on our behalf.

Also, I read on the UPC web-site from the "60 questions" how God was Christ on earth, while simultanously being God the Father in heaven, since He is "omnipresent".

How do you explain Jesus Christ praying to God in heaven and referring to Him as "My Father"?...

"O my Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me. Nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will"

Also, as Marcia shared, at Christs baptism the voice from heaven...and I am assuming you acknowledge it was God and not demonic in origin...said...

"You are my beloved Son, in You I am well pleased."

How do you guys explain these passages?

God bless,

Mike

 

Marcia,

I said...

And you said...

I know that! I think you might be getting a grip on what I am saying.

I have never said that they acknowledge the understanding of God that we call "the Trinity". Only that they acknowledge a "Triune" nature of God.

They clearly believe that there are 3 ways God manifests Himself. Or...a "triune" God.

But I, as you do, disagree with them regarding how the Triune nature of God works itself out.

God bless,

Mike

 

WE do not believe that God the Father "exercised power over God the Son and made Him die for our sins".

Rather we believe the clear text of Philipians 2 where we are told that Christ of His OWN free will CHOSE to "empty himself" and take on the form of a man. It was His character - that He did not see "equality with God a thing to be held on to at any cost to humanity". He willingly "humbled himself" according to the text. He "emptied himself" of that God-power that He held so that on earth He could "truthfully" claim "OF My OWNSELF I can do nothing".

Three "persons" - One Godhead. Neither one forcing the other to do their will.

Jesus Christ urges the point with the Father "NOT My will BUT Thy Will be done". The Character of God - the Character of Christ is selfless - unselfish - love that GIVES rather than enslaves.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]1John 4:9
9) In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Does the above scripture line up with what you believe? The part where it says.... God sent his only begotten Son into the world,...

I'm not sure that I'm following you.

MEE

 

Mike, they won't let me post links, on the BB forum, but if you want, send me your e-mail address and I will send you a link that explains everything about the passages.

MEE

 

Mee,

Bob can answer much better than I can, so I'll just offer this passage...

John 10:17...

"Therefore my Father loves me, because I lay down my life for the sheep. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down myself. I have pwer to lay it down, and I have power to take it again."

God bless,

Mike

 

Mee,

If you dont mind, cant we just talk as if we were sitting and having coffee together?

Just in your own words...how do you explain it?

Thanks,

Mike

 

Mike, I would but it is just too lengthy and I could never do it justice.

It consists of subjects like:

1. The Baptism of Christ
2. The Voice From Heaven
3. The prayers of Christ
4. My God, My God, Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me?
5. Communication of Knowledge Between Persons in
the Godhead?

There are more, but one would have to read them to get the real meaning of what has been researched.

MEE

 

Sure -- God so Loved the World that HE Gave His Only Son. (Not "God so Loved the World that He Became His only Son").

Philippians 2 points out that it was Christ who had this attitude IN HIM - that of selflessness.

Your position is that He was forced - but note how such an interpretation does injustice to the text.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello, my name is Will. This is my first post here. I'm a believer in the restored true church of God, otherwise known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

I can't help but feel as if that was partially addressed to me.

I wish to discuss some of these issues.

1) About modern and new revelation. To better understand the Book of Mormon and other Scriptures, you have to put yourself in the shoes of the intertestamental (between the Old and New testament era) jews. Of course, Paul and His mere epistles, or letters were Scripture. Would the jews have added it onto the Old Testament? No- they rejected the modern revelation and refused to accept it, and still do today, simply because they believe that the revelation stopped there. They persectued this radical new group, that made outrageous claims in light of their religious views which they viewed to be orthodox and true. Enter Joseph Smith in 1834. God revealed that there is another testament. Nobody excepts it, because of course, we think we have it all already. We're wrong again, and we persecute and chase down those claiming otherwise. Now we can add on another testament. Try to imagine your Bible without your new testament. It would be hard to understand. That's what the Bible is like without the Book of Mormon and the other Scriptures.

The jews made that mistake last time and rejected the message they claimed. I pray that you will not do the same.


2) We interpret the Scriptures in the way that seems most consistent, as do you. We all interpret it in the light of doctrines we hold to. You can't tell me you get the Trinity doctrine, or the deity of the Holy Spirit being fused with the other two persons into one God, when you're reading it openly. I'm afraid all Christians are guilty of this at differing degrees. Think carefully before you respond- your willingness or refusal to accept this fact will speak volumes to us about how you view reality. Everybody does this to some extent. Who does it more than others then is relative.

3)Alright, this one was for us- I can take a hint. When you say "man" you must clarify that you mean sanctified and perfected men acheive such. Jesus is viewed EXACTLY as He is in the Scriptures- the only begotten Son of God sent to do the will of the Father and not His own. Our Savior.

4) I'm curious how you came up with this list. Anyways, of course we have a new structure that God revealed to us. We were told not to join any of the other churches. He did not desire for us to fashion it after others. He gave a very precise and very extended group of clergy and very active laity.

5) Unfortunately, this is true. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does use words that many mistake for other things. Whose fault is that? Are we going to adjust our vocabulary to accomodate and take into account possible similarities for mistaken beliefs? Maybe we should- you are lucky to some degree because as an LDS I am quite careful with my words and will be totally open. Having once been a Protestant that deeply studied systmatic theology, I know not to use some words that you might mistake for others. For example, you'll never hear me talking about dispensationalism because in our theologies they're drastically different. I don't know whether you subscribe to covenant theology or not. Some Baptists do and some don't. As a Baptist I didn't but my pastor did. When we speak of dispensationalism, we speak of prophets leading new eras. You might think of a deep connection to Israelology and possible links to pretribulatoinal premillennialism. I'm willing to bend a little and use these words according to y'alls understanding of them. So this one you shouldn't worry much about.

6) We don't replace the Triune God- we separate them and acknowledge their subordinations. We acknowledge the deity of all three.

7) I don't know why you think that you hold to the Bible but we don't. Under the Trinity, you guys take the more indirect route by trying to find verses that actually support it. We rather believe that God the Father sent His Son Jesus Christ as a sacrifice for our sins. You believe that Jesus Christ is actually God but distinct from Him and that He was sent to do the will of th Father which isn't His own will as fully God and fully man. The latter of your beliefs is affirmed in Scripture, the former you have to connect a few choice passages that are unrelated and try to reason it out. So in some ways, you are guilty of this where we aren't. In others, we are guilty where you aren't.

8) You truly don't understand LDS theology then. We don't claim dependence on God. There is one mediator between God and man- Christ Jesus our Lord. The prophet simply reveals additional information to the church from time to time. God doesn't broadcast it to all Christians worldwide when He wishes to reveal something- just like He didn't in the Old Testament. They depended on one man then too in that sense. In a revelatory sense. We depended on one man through the power of God for 75% of our New Testament. The prophet has relatavory significance, not soteriological or any other.

9) We believe that salvation from our sins is faith in Christ. Once that is done, we then emphasize works to achieve the fulness of salvation. Post-salvational rewards are mentioned in Scripture (Romans 2:6, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15). The ultimate goal in eternal progression is exaltation.


God doesn't reveal His truths to those who don't seek. First you must humble yourself, admit your blindness, and ask for the truth. When your request is sincere, you will be ready for God to lead you in that direction.

I'll tell you- you know what was hard for me? Humility. I had written two chapters of a systematic theology my senior year in high school last year, and man was I arrogant. Not at all rude (rather I was pious and friendly and humble in a pretentious and ostentatious way), just haughty. I had written an unrefuted defense of Calvinism that might have gotten published (God did not let me go through with it as He had other plans). I'm glad, because that would have sealed my fate. I thought I had it all- I was a dispensationalist, pretribulationist, Calvinist, traducian, you name it. God filled me with emptiness. Friends and family helped, but inside I felt empty like I was putting on a show to impress everybody. I figured that the only way I could have the truth was to empty myself of ALL knowledge, start with a clean slate, and this time, pray that I would be led in the truth.

Trust me, to pray about the LDS church being true requires one thing in great excess- humility. I was there. I know. "I already know the Book of Mormon is wrong and that the LDS church is wrong, God." I said, "God, I know nothing apart from You." And little by little He's been revealing more and more. The transition to the LDS church has not come easy. I'm still in it. But it's been a wonderful experience and this is only the tip of the iceberg.

What has been so great? Deep prayer. A feeling of power over sin. A feeling of cleanliness and feeling close to God. I know you might think feelings are to be ignored- but what if during prayer to God you get the overwhelming sensation that you are a sinful and ignorant mortal being drawn into the presence of a holy and almighty God? That's something you can't ignore or deny. And it only happens with humility and prayer. The LDS church is about humility. That's why this journey is difficult for me- because of my past of having learned so much Protestant doctrine I had a theological snobbery. But God is helping humble me.

If someone is going to respond to this please do not do the typical "save the mormon" hit-and-run attempt with fluffy and emotional comments. TTYL Jesus loves you!

[ July 11, 2004, 01:10 AM: Message edited by: Defender of the Faith ]

 

Mike, I would but it is just too lengthy and I could never do it justice.

It consists of subjects like:

1. The Baptism of Christ
2. The Voice From Heaven
3. The prayers of Christ
4. My God, My God, Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me?
5. Communication of Knowledge Between Persons in
the Godhead?

There are more, but one would have to read them to get the real meaning of what has been researched.

MEE </font>[/QUOTE]Heh, good point. Why is there communication in the Godhead under Constantinian Trinitarianism?

They're all omniscient right? They already know everything so what's the point in communicating. They know what the divine plan is (with the exception of the kenosis in the incarnation of Christ under your theology) and what each other is thinking. Why is this whole communication within the Trinity thing pushed?

And the "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me?" thing never made sense until I rejected the false Trinity doctrine. It made sense in that I could convince other people (I said it was symbolic of God having left Him to appease His wrath and propitiate our sins- as if I knew what I was talking about. Why did people ever listen to me). But if God did forsake Jesus, why did He ask the Father that in prayer and why did He pray it aloud? The Protestant interpretation of this fits, but loosely and you can't help but get the feeling like you just twisted something because you don't understand it or because it doesn't fit your current beliefs.

How can one person within the Godhead be within time and space and incarnate while the other two are in heaven... and still be LITERALLY one God in substance?

I take it that you are not a Trinitarian then Mee? We should stick together.

 

Where does one begin? Mormonism---

A false book--teaching things that have clearly been shown to be false. Had several revisions.

Speaks of animals on this continent that did
come for hundreds of years after the time mentioned in the book.

Recent DNA evidence proves the whole story in the book of mormon not possible. There is no DNA that ties the native americans with the ancient jews.

A founder that was a fraud who declares a gospel different than that the Bible teaches.

The book has clearly passages that have been plagerized from the Bible.

Mormonism teaches a god who continues to evolve and the possibility for men to attain god-hood.

One could go on and on. It is all peoples choice what they want to believe and what religious group they want to be a part of. If that is what you want I will not try to "save the mormon", I could not if I wanted to because only God can bring one to salvation. But, don't falsely assume that mormonism and biblically Christianity are anything similar to one another.

 

Does the board recognize Mormonism as Christian????

Don't you have to be a Christian to post?

 

How has it been proven to be false? I started a thread on archaeology and the Book of Mormon if that is what you mean. I'm addressing the details there. Please join me.

It had less revisions than the Bible. Hence the Book of Mormon is more perfect than it. Not by much. I'll admit- as an LDS, I'm still pretty faithful to my roots of Biblical inerrancy. I accept the Bible to be precisely as inerrant as a translator would, such as Gleason Archer. Even if by one thousandth of a percent, the Book of Mormon still has less translation errors because it has gone through but one translation. It's that simple. The Bible has gone through many. I'm not sure that I believe that God would allow the Holy Bible to be corrupted. I'm quite convinced that most errors were innocent mistakes. Most of them- the Book of Mormon is clear that many "plain and precious truths" were taken out of the Bible.

Which animals exactly? Chickens? They did indeed exist- lesser prairie chickens, as well as turkeys existed. You're probably thinking about elephants in which case, refer here:

www.jefflindsay.com

Actually, that's not true. DNA evidence connects native americans to asians only 95%. LDS do not CLAIM that the native americans came from the jews. Only that the jews had a small and negligible effect on the genetics of the native americans already existing there. Lehi and his immediate family would have done little to a large group of Asian immigrants that already existed in the americas. These Asian immigrants, known as the jaredites, are written of in Ether. DNA evidence confirms that native americans are mostly jaredite (asian) and very likely semitic in a negligible degree.

How was Joseph Smith a fraud? What leads you to claim such? He claimed another gospel because He was doing exactly what Paul instructed in Galatians 1:8- to reject all gospels contrary to the one he was teaching in his epistles. The doctrines of the Trinity, and of monotheism, are not affirmed in Paul's epistles. Rather, we see that multiple gods exist in the Scriptures, but we are to worship only ONE. What is the first commandment? Thou shalt have no other gods BEFORE ME. He's the first in line. Check 1 Cor. 8:6 which speaks of many gods and lords but for us there is only one we acknowledge and worship.

The plaguarism was done several thousand years ago and when God led Joseph Smith through the translation He saw to it that they were identical, with the exception of parts that had been removed intentionally, accidentally, or as a result of translator fatigue.

I find it interesting that many feel led to tell us what we believe. In this case, you are correct. We do believe such. Is that possibility not mentioned in John 10:34, and in the command to be perfect- to be just as our Father in heaven?

What's the point of sanctification if not exaltation? Everything that happens on earth is preparation for eternality with God. God wouldn't just create something to train us in a way for no reason. If no matter what we're all going to be just given perfection without effort(which is what Satan wants you to believe), then what's the point of doing good works? I know that under Baptist theology, you SHOULD just because you SHOULD. By why does God want you to be sanctified gradually on earth if we're all going to be perfect instantly in heaven anyways? Under LDS theology, it's a process. Just like families. Why does God give us families on earth if they're going to be disbanded forever in heaven? It is preparation for marriage in heaven. That is what this life is- preparation.

No, Baptist theology and LDS theology are drastically different. About as opposite as you get. I'm not denying that.

I am saying that I used to pride myself in being so opposite LDS, now I look back and realize the shame of it. Thank you for your kind attention into this matter.

 

I believe that by grace Jesus Christ saves the elect from physical death through the resurrection.

I believe that by faith Jesus Christ is the hope of salvation of all mankind from their sins and that the gospel is the hope found in Him and that by no other name can man be saved.

I believe that by works one can complete the fulness of salvation through sanctificatoin to whatever that goal might be.

It is my sole purpose and desire in life to serve and please God thanks to the atonement of Jesus Christ. Point being if I'm not a Christian here, then I don't know what anyone else can say that will distinguish that THEY are. Maybe if I believed in the Trinity and rejected the Book of Mormon I'd be a Christian?

I accept and preach the gospel of Christ Jesus our Lord for the salvation of ours sins and eternal life in heaven. No fancy talk or careful wording or deception. I meant that. Please define what a Christian is if I'm not one.

 

You said you were not a monotheist, and I do not consider this to be an acceptable expression of Christian faith.


"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!"

- Deuteronomy 6:4 (NASB)

How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?

- John 5:44 (NASB)

More than one God? I think not.

 

Try this treatment:

http://ag.org/followchrist/guidance.cfm

- and -

http://ag.org/pentecostal-evangel/Articles2002/foundational_two.cfm

These are from the Assemblies of God website and reflect the general concensus of this site and the majority Biblical understanding of most of us posting here...