Marriage and Civil Unions.

Well, if the community of faith knows that you have made a public vow of marriage, and if people with whom you speak know that your commitment is marriage, what other witness is necessary?

To compare, if you are baptized in front of people, and you tell people that you are baptized, does it matter (with respect to your witness) whether or not you have a sheet saying that you were?

Which is more important? The paper or the commitment?

</font>[/QUOTE]The issue is not a piece of paper or a commitment. As believers, it's about our witness for Christ even more than about what works for us. It is a poor witness to the state and to unbelievers to be living together as man and wife without legal sanction. In other words, even if married by a pastor, the couple without a license is still seen by the state as not being married. Therefore, for the sake of Christ and His glory, and as a witness, we should follow the law and be married in the eyes of the law as a witness to the world that we are married in Christ and are willing to make that committment before the state and be married in their eyes, too.

 

This is a very interesting discussion. I cannot understand why a couple would not want to get a valid marriage license. However, the only time I had to show the marriage license for the marriage with my first husband was after he died.

I also find it interesting that this discussion says that we must follow man's laws or we are sinning when just a few weeks ago in another thread some people on this Board were advocating that man's laws be broken in Florida. They even thought that Governor Jed Bush should break the law. Interesting!

 

Stephan, you gotta kidding right. Do you know how many people use Christians as their excuse for not being married? You have to get out more!

We aren't talking about some other hypothetical religion that doesn't believe in government rule. We are talking about Christian's who follow the Baptist doctrine and KNOW what the Bible says about government being ordained by God. We can't just toss that passage out of the Bible.

Now we can have a preacher marry us, and not register with the government, and God might not hold us as adulterers, but I believe he will hold us as rebellious.

Now, as for when the two actually become one(when the marriage occurs), a number of things has to happen. The ceremony, the liscense, and the consuption(wedding night) all have a part in the process. (Kinda like arguing when salvation occurs, huh )

 

There is no law that says that those who are covenantally married must also sign state recognized marriage certificate.

That is their choice and is not against the law.

Again, there is no civil law being broken by not being signing a state recognized marriage certificate when one has entered into a covenantal marriage.

 

Thankful, I think what makes the difference between the two events is that we are to follow man's law until it crosses the line of God's law. At the point where man would require us to break God's law, we have to make our stand with the Lord.

Argueable, as to whether or not we public had a vested interest in the Shavio case(does/did God hold her death, if it were murder in His eyes, against us all or just those who were in direct contact with her). I realize this is totally off topic. Sorry Mods.

 

There is nothing unChristian about being married covenantally but not civilly. The state getting involved in marriage didn't happen until around the Reformation.

 

But the state is involved now. And it will become pretty clear if two people are living together but not married legally when taxes are filed, when one of them dies and when they have children.
I still maintain it's a poor witness as a Christian to do this even if it's not technically disobeying a law.

There is no good reason to not have the legal sanction. It also appears like a rebellious attitude, which again, is not a good witness.

 

Ok, hypothetical situation:

A believer lives in a state which suddenly sanctions gay marriage. This believer and his fiance decide not to obtain a state marriage license so as to "avoid all appearance of evil" (I'm not advocating this, but let's say someone thought this way). If this couple believed that the state "marriage" was tainted and corrupt, and they elected to suffer the consquences so as to remain pure in their minds from the corruption of the system, should they be considered sinful?

In this situation, assume everything else is the same--all but the piece of paper.

What do you think?

 

I don't see how getting a marriage license even in this situation is an appearance of evil. What is unbiblical is living in a homosexual marriage, or living together without being legally married.

We are in a fallen world and everything is tainted. Even if civil unions are granted for homosexual couples, I think Christians should continue to get marriage licenses and I don't think it hurts their witness to do so. It hurts their witness more not to get one, imo.

 

If none of my married friends signed a marriage certificat, I would be none the wiser. When is the last time you saw someone else's tax forms?

Some possible reasons were stated in the other Covenant Marriage thread.

 

In THAT instance, God's law was being broken and MURDER was committed!

 

I was also referring to the parents who were encouraging their children to break the trespassing laws. I believe these are man's laws and do not break God's laws.

 

If none of my married friends signed a marriage certificat, I would be none the wiser. When is the last time you saw someone else's tax forms?
</font>[/QUOTE]What is your standard? You, your oonscience, man, the mob, or is your standard the standard of God as given in his Word?

Has our society come down to this:
Judges 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
--Do Christians, in spite of the law, live by a law of anarchy, and do "that which is right in their own eyes."

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
--Sin is a transgression of the law, including the law of the government. Speeding is sin. So is going against the laws of the land pertaining to marriage. Sin is a transgression of the law.

Rom.14:23 for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
--Are you absulotely 100% sure that the style of life you live (being shacked up illegally in a "marriage" that the state does not recognize)?

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
--I may not know if my neighbor cheats on his taxes but God does.
I know if I cheat on my taxes, and I know if my marriage is done legally. And so does God. There are no secrets with Him.
Is sin relative? Not at all.
DHK

 

I agree with DHK's post.

God knows, and it's a witness to the state as well. To be legally married here you need a marriage license. Not having one is to be not legally married. I think, therefore, it is putting one's self above the law not to be legally married.

Going out of town on two trips so will not be posting for awhile.

 

God's standard of marriage says nothing about involving the state.

I did a little more research, and it appears to be illegal in every state in the US for a minister to perform a marriage without presenting a signed marriage certificate to the government. So from this perspective, I can see how Covenant Marriages without a marriage certificate are wrong because they are causing someone else to do something illegal.

National Association of Wedding Officiants: Celebrant Laws by State

[ May 03, 2005, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Gold Dragon ]

 

God doesn't say anything about speeding either, but it is still against the law to go over the speed limit. It is against God's law to break man's law--which God has put in place (i.e., the state laws concerning marriage.) This is made clear in Scripture.

Romans 13:1-2 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

1 Peter 2:13-14 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

 

And I kept asking you to show what state laws were being violated by those engaging in a covenant marriage without a marriage certificate.

Since you weren't able to provide any, I found it myself. The law violated would be that requiring the clergy to submit a valid certificate to the government when they perform a marriage ceremony.

 

And I kept asking you to show what state laws were being violated by those engaging in a covenant marriage without a marriage certificate.

Since you weren't able to provide any, I found it myself. The law violated would be that requiring the clergy to submit a valid certificate to the government when they perform a marriage ceremony. </font>[/QUOTE]Marcia stated many of them for you:
--blood tests are required.
--a state certificate is required. To obtain such one must demonstrate who they are etc. giving proper identification for the state records.
--There may be other requirements that vary from state to state.
DHK