They were married, though. You have to deny the Scriptures to say they weren't one flesh.
Adam and Eve didn't have sex till after the Fall. Were they married?
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Marriage: Authority Granted by God?
- Thread starter canadyjd
- Start date
Adam and Eve didn't have sex till after the Fall. Were they married?
*sigh*
Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son:
They were married, or they wouldn't be taking that trip together. It's God that joins in marriage, and it's from that joining that man and woman become one flesh. Not from sex.
But, here endeth the lesson. Persist in your superstitions if you wish.
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
The passage you just quoted was from Matthew. It does say that Joseph took Mary as his wife, keeping her a virgin until after the birth of Jesus.
The passage from Luke says that Joseph was betrothed to Mary when they traveled to Bethlehem.
I can reconcile the passages by pointing out the passage from Matthew was focused on Joseph and whether or not he would take Mary as his wife...ever. After the vision from the angel he decided to make Mary as his wife but waited until after the birth of Jesus to become one flesh with her.
Thus, Luke says they were betrothed.
I don't see how you can reconcile the passages by saying they were already married and one flesh when they traveled to Bethlehem to scripture says they were betrothed.
I am, however, ready to be educated if you can reconcile the passages in a way that explains why Luke says they were betrothed, not married, on the way to Bethlehem.
The passage from Luke says that Joseph was betrothed to Mary when they traveled to Bethlehem.
I can reconcile the passages by pointing out the passage from Matthew was focused on Joseph and whether or not he would take Mary as his wife...ever. After the vision from the angel he decided to make Mary as his wife but waited until after the birth of Jesus to become one flesh with her.
Thus, Luke says they were betrothed.
I don't see how you can reconcile the passages by saying they were already married and one flesh when they traveled to Bethlehem to scripture says they were betrothed.
I am, however, ready to be educated if you can reconcile the passages in a way that explains why Luke says they were betrothed, not married, on the way to Bethlehem.
They were living together. That means they had the wedding. Were they married or not?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
You are assuming they were living together. You are assuming they had a wedding.
Luke says they were betrothed, not married, when they traveled to Bethlehem. Please reconcile that passage of scripture with your statement that they were already married when they traveled to Bethlehem.
Luke says they were betrothed, not married, when they traveled to Bethlehem. Please reconcile that passage of scripture with your statement that they were already married when they traveled to Bethlehem.
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You need to check the meaning of "troth" in any good dictionary, "faith or loyalty when pledged in a solemn agreement or undertaking. An oath or vow to be true, such as a wedding vow."
So, yes, the bible is not wrong. Matthew 1:20 says she was his wife. And "betrothed" (past tense of "troth") indicates they already had the wedding where they "pledged their troth each to the other."
They certainly cohabited on the road, but if they weren't married, Mary would be going to Bethlehem be counted with her father.
Sooner or later you will have to admit that it is God that joins in marriage, and not sex. If a couple is married, they are one flesh by virtue of marriage, and not sex, and certainly not fornication.
Now understanding that, what do you think Paul is saying in 1 Cor. 6?
Now understanding that, what do you think Paul is saying in 1 Cor. 6?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
The Greek word in Luke 2:5 is from "mnesteuo". It means to be promised to be married. It does not mean "wife" nor does it mean they were already married.
So, again, to answer the question you asked about whether Joseph and Mary were "one flesh" when they went to Bethlehem, Luke 2:5 (The passage concerning that trip) says that Mary was engaged to Joseph, not married to Joseph.
So, again, to answer the question you asked about whether Joseph and Mary were "one flesh" when they went to Bethlehem, Luke 2:5 (The passage concerning that trip) says that Mary was engaged to Joseph, not married to Joseph.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Again, you are assuming they co-habituated rather than traveled together as part of a larger group, which was common in that time because of the dangers on the road. We know nothing of Mary's parents and don't know whether they were part of the group or not.
Scripture doesn't give us all the details of every event. You may say that is an argument from silence but so is your statement that they co-habitated. Scripture says they traveled together not that they co-habitated.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I have always maintained that God joins in marriage, not a holy man or a wedding ceremony. That is what the thread is about.
Genesis tells us "how" a couple becomes "one flesh". You leave your father and mother and you cling to your wife. The "clinging" is s*x. You become intimate with the woman.
That is consistent with Paul's statement in 1 Cor. concerning becoming one flesh with a pros..tute.
I have answered your questions directly. I understand you disagree with me.
You have not yet reconciled the Matthew passage which states Joseph took Mary as his wife, and the Luke passage which states they were engaged, not married, when they traveled to Bethlehem.
Please answer directly.
You need just a bit more study. The Greek word μεμνηστευμενη, used in this verse, is the perfect, passive, participle of μνηστεύω. The perfect tense is used to indicate a completed or "perfected" action. In this case Joseph has already taken Mary as his wife, and given a gift in token and pledge of his faithfulness to her. In our culture we give a wedding ring. In the Jewish culture of that day it was a Matan, or Bridal Gift. Following the wedding ceremony the groom would return to his home to fulfill his obligations during the betrothal. But just prior to leaving he would give his wife a Matan, or bridal gift, a pledge of his love for her. It's purpose was to be a reminder to his bride, during their days of separation, as he went to prepare a place for her, of his love for her and faithfulness to her, that he was thinking of her - and that he would return to receive her unto himself and consummate the marriage.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I appreciate the information. You seem very comfortable with the Greek. Me, not so much, but I try.
A question. What does "consummate the marriage" mean?
Was the "completed action" the giving of the the bridal gift or was the "completed action" the marriage itself? It seems to me the completed action was the giving of the gift.
I understand that in Jewish culture there was little distinction between being engaged and being married. If the "completed action" is the marriage, why the need to connsumate?
If they were already married, why would Luke not use the word for wife to refer to Mary? "Guna" if I remember? Why make a point of distinction concerning their relationship?
Additionally, I would be interested in your take on Paul's statement in 1 Cor 6, concerning becoming one flesh with the pros..tute. He clearly quotes the Genesis passage concerning one flesh.
Do you think s*x is necessary to become one flesh as described in Genesis? Leave, cling, become one flesh?
Thanks again for the input.
A question. What does "consummate the marriage" mean?
Was the "completed action" the giving of the the bridal gift or was the "completed action" the marriage itself? It seems to me the completed action was the giving of the gift.
I understand that in Jewish culture there was little distinction between being engaged and being married. If the "completed action" is the marriage, why the need to connsumate?
If they were already married, why would Luke not use the word for wife to refer to Mary? "Guna" if I remember? Why make a point of distinction concerning their relationship?
Additionally, I would be interested in your take on Paul's statement in 1 Cor 6, concerning becoming one flesh with the pros..tute. He clearly quotes the Genesis passage concerning one flesh.
Do you think s*x is necessary to become one flesh as described in Genesis? Leave, cling, become one flesh?
Thanks again for the input.
Engage in sexual intercourse. That normally would happen when the groom returned to his bride's household and took his wife to her new home. In Joseph's case he waited until after the child was born.
They are part of the same ceremony.
Would you prefer to live as brother and sister? One of the purposes of marriage is procreation.
He did - ἀπογράψασθαι σὺν Μαριὰμ τῇ μεμνηστευμένῃ αὐτῷ γυναικί, οὔσῃ ἐγκύῳ.
Is the Holy Spirit, Matan?
LOL. Yes I have. If you need more non-Greek help, the Angel's instruction to Joseph wasn't, "Stay engaged," and Matthew 1:24 is not properly understood as "And Joseph stayed engaged to Mary."