Marriage Problem

But is holding hands a sin? I am not sure we can make that point.

Based on the OP, this couple does not appear to be burning. I completely agree if there is any sexual activity. However, that was explicitly denied in this case.

[qutoe]Roommates may live together (hopefully without open immorality or hidden lust) [/quote]That seems to be the case here, based on the OP.

BTW, I am not recommending or endorsing what this couple is doing. I am questioning whether they are actually doing anything that the Bible forbids.

 

Pastor Larry,

Proverbs 31 displays the biblical responsibilities of a wife- and shows that a marriage relationship is much more than physical.

Other passages such as Ephesians 5 show us that marriage is about love and submission, not just physical indulgence in one another.

I don't know about you and your room mates, but when I roomed with other guys, it was chaotic and unstructured- far different than the orderly partnership my wife and I share. To describe a college roommate situation with other men as cohabitation in this context is quite ludicrous. Now, if you and your college room mates were enjoying exclusive benefits of companionship (even if they were not physical/sexual), we would all start to wonder about you. Chances are, you shared very little with them other than a room, and when you did share more, it caused friction and discomfort.

And, referring to steveo's couple, if you and your college roomies were holding hands on a regular basis, I'd have a problem with you cohabiting as well.

bottom line: If it's wrong for the grandkids, it should be wrong for the grandparents as well.

 

Let me ask it this way: Would you feel this way about this couple is they had different addresses?

Now, individually, Greg,

I don't dispute that, but the Bible does not prohibit anything outside of marriage except sex. Marriage is much more than the physical; but the physical is all that is prohibited. Again, think about what the Bible actually says. I understand that most of us (myself included) cannot imagine living in a house with a woman apart from sex. But it can be done. Again, I would ask, what does the Bible actually prohibit.

As to your bottomline, I cannot buy that at all. A grandparent can do a lot of things grandkids can't do. And I presume that you know your statement was not biblical.

And this is based on what passage of Scripture or principle of Scripture? Holding hands is not forbidden for unmarried couples. I am not saying this couple shouldn't get married. Perhaps they should get different apartments and just date. You guys probably wouldn't have the issue then. The key thing seems to be that this couple is living under the same roof, althought in different beds and bedrooms.

Remember guys, my point is to get us back to what the Bible says. What is really wierd here about this, to me anyway, is that I am usually the one accuse of adding to Scripture when it comes to church membership and church involvement. I have been blasted for the view of the church that I take. Now you guys are telling me I need to raise it ... kind of humorous ... to me anyway ...

 

Holding hands shows they are "more than friends"? That is just plain speculation and to insist they be married on this basis is crazy.

Shows of affection like holding hands, hugging etc, doesn't neccesarily mean that someone cares for another person on a "more than friendship basis".

Maybe it would be best to let these folks sing and stop over-analizing the situation. They've stated that they are not intimate, and you have no biblical support for condemning their sharing a home.

 

Thirty years ago this kind of discussion would not have taken place. It was considered wrong in any circle I can think of. People were arrested for this type of behavior.

Sounds to me like yesterdays' taboo has become today's orthodoxy.

The Bible does not say that I cannot eat bacon but I will not when inviting a Jew to dine with me. "Freedom is not the right to do as please, but to please to do what is right."

Personally I could not marry them knowing that what they are asking is not above board. They are asking the pastor to be hush about marrying them. The right thing is never wrong. So why deviate from what is right. Our testimony is not a closet idea or philosophy but lived to be out before the world. We are not to be closet Christians.

 

For the record, I am not arguing for the pastor to marry them in secret. I'm arguing that in their situation, they shouldn't be denied membership or service or singing in the chior based on the facts given in the OP.

 

I agree ... I wouldn't either.

 

What is unbiblical about it? Does the statute of limitations on a pattern of behavior become less sinful once you pass 65? Co-ed dormitories are a bad idea for hormonally-charged 18-24 year olds, but acceptable for our senior citizens?

That is horribly inconsistent.

 

It isn't taught in the Bible. Grandparents can do a lot of things that grandkids cannot do.

No ... What sinful behavior is this older couple involved in?

Senior citizens, as I understand it, are typically not "hormonally charged." My mother in law just spent several months in a coed dormitory ... rehabbing for a physical condition. There were men on the hall who lived in different rooms, slept in different beds, but lived under the same roof. There was no sin involved in it in the least.

No it's not. I am perfectly wiling to say that sin is sin. But again, what is the sin that these people are committing? Can we get to the Scripture?

 

At these people's age, I am pretty sure they have left their father and mother ... ... YOu will have to do better than that.

I honestly don't know if I would let them serve. I would certainly confront them about it and talk to them adn see what they had to say. But if we are going to talk about scriptural mandates, then they need to be scriptural. You can have non scriptural institutional standards for why a person cannot minister in teh church. That is fine ... just make sure you call them that.

Remember Scripture does not forbid "living together." It forbids immorality.

 

What do you mean "what do I do with it?" It doesn't have a lot to do with this situation so far as I can tell from what has been said. Here you have an older couple towards the twilight of their life finding companionship. Niether has a living spouse; they are not involved in sexual immorality. Based on what has said here, there is nothing biblical that they are violating ...

Becoming one is an important part of marriage. It does not apply to people who aren't married.

 

Dear Brother Steveo,
I would first engage them in some pre-marital counseling.That is using scripture explain to them what marriage is as far as the church and God are concerned. It is unclear whether they are in love or not.It is unclear whether they are just trying to keep up appearances.I know it sounds strange to counsel a senior couple in this manner, however many couples are never properly counseled before marriage.

This could solve your problem if this cuople finds they are friends who are room mates and not in love.Biblical love has a much higher standard than our modern society has for marriage.

So I guess what I'm saying is first find out what thier real relationship is.Help them to find out what thier real relationship is. Then help them to do the right thing according to Biblical standards. Pray with them before and after counseling asking God to reveal His Truth in love and understanding.This kind of approach may help them to put everything in a proper spirtual context.After this is done you will know what to do.

 

That is not the same thing. Anyone of any age could spend time in a hospital or rehab facility without the air of innapropriate behavior surrounding it. Your mother-in-law did not share the same type of relationship with her fellow patients as do the people at steveo's church.

As far as getting to the scripture goes, you never did comment on the passages I submitted (Proverbs 31, Ephesians 5) that describe the way a marriage relationship should work. It is built on mutual love, care and submission to one another. To express the desire to be married "in God's eyes" should also be enough of a clue that even their consciences are telling them that this is more than a shared house arrangement.

 

The differences are there for sure. But in both cases, you have people living under the same roof in an ongoing arrangement. The point should be clear however: Living together is not wrong. Sexual immorality is wrong.

What was I supposed to comment on? I agree with you. Proverbs 31 is certainly a stretch, but Eph 5 is good. These people do not appear to want a marriage relationship. They are not involved in physical relations and they do not want to get married by the law. That means they don't want to get married. If I were the pastor, I would find out why they want some church pronouncement about "married in God's eyes." What difference does it make to them?

I don't know ... I don't know these people or what is going through their mind. Maybe tradition is telling them something. I am not aware of any verse that prohibits two people from living in the same house and sharing a lot of things.

My focus has been on the point of biblical teaching about what is going on. There have been many statements made, none of which have been backed up by Scripture. Again, I have to ask, what exactly is this couple doing that is sinful?

We can say it isn't the best; it isn't good; it doesn't set a good example; etc. But to say it is sin, we need some statement from God. People can have close relationships without being married. They cross the line when it enters immorality.