Martial Arts

Cool thread. I have heard some people say that Christians should not study Martial Arts at all.

My best bud is a second dan in Shotokan. I studied Shao Lin as a teen, but I quit because the instructor was wayyy into daoism. I then studied TKD, but the instructor was a little like the bad sensei in Karate Kid. I then moved on to Shotokan- enjoyed it. Had some Aikido on the side.

Got the real lesson in martial arts when I became a loss prevention associate for a local Wal-mart. I quickly learned that being a dojo ballerina doesn't help when you are trying to detain a hostile shoplifter. So I took Jeet Kune in my senior year of College- I like the the practical aspects of JKD. If it doesn't work on the street, don't train in it. "Absorb that which is useful...."

I do confess to feeling uncomfortable with some of the eastern mysticism advanced in many dojos, though. I see Zen as a primitive attempt at psychology. But many folks are suckered into that stuff. Christian meditation is focusing on the person and work of Christ- filling the mind with Him and His word. I heard a lot of "clear your mind- make it empty...." And one instructor compared Budha to Christ.

I like reading Sun Tsu and Musashi, and Japanese culture is fascinating. Some of the philosophy is useful:

"Enter by form to exit from form." I have that one committed to memory- along with Bruce Lee quotes. And I don't think it is unchristian to study martial arts....

 

Does anyone here know of Capoeria? It is very popular in Brasil, and has been used in some movies here recently.

 

I did TKD for two years when I was young, but I lost my confidence in it. I eventually realized that I had been learning a sport and not an MA. I've seen traditional TKD fighters in full-contact tournaments get dominated my shotokan stylists. The TKD guys kept backing up in an attempt to use their legs, they didn't understand punching combos or throws, had never practiced knee or elbow strikes when grappling, and they had absolutely no clue what to do on the ground other than get caught immediately in a submission hold or choke.

I remember a TKD fighter on one of the old UFC's looking absolutely pathetic and helpless.

Have any of you had this experience with traditional Tae Kwon Do?

ETA: I just realized that I kept saying "traditional TKD", and that's not really what I mean. The school I went to taught us how to throw high, pretty kicks from the knee and not the powerful kicks from the hip like Muy Thai, for example.

[ December 13, 2005, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: James Flagg ]

 

Hi, Vasco. Look back a little. Uncharted Spirit was just talking about Capoeira.

Have you learned some Capoeria yourself, Vasco?

 

Hey, Heavy Metal, don't be so hard on us dojo ballerinas. We might get hurt if we sparred full contact!

Seriously, JKD is one of the best arts ever to get up to speed on practical combat. Shaolin will do it too--it just takes a lot longer. An internal kung fu art called Hsing I will do it quickly, and Wing Chun will, too. As you know, Wing Chun is one foundation for JKD. I've had some Wing Chun, and it's pretty good stuff.

So, what is your lineage for JKD? What branch of the art are you learning?

God bless.

John of Japan

 

Hi, James.

I've never trained in TKD, but I have two friends who are 4th black in it. There are a lot of different brands out there, and some are a lot tougher than others. Of course, the more recent Olympic style stuff is nothing but sport, as you say.

So, you've seen some of the UFC. Ever see any of the Pride fights from here in Japan?

 

John of Japan:

I studied for a while under Sifu Scott Elliot, who was a student of Dan Inosanto. And don't take my "ballerina" comment to be a slam on tradition. Tradition is fine if the student is applying that philosophy "enter by form to exit from form." I loved my Shotokan training (one day, Lord Willing, I will pick it back up when my schedule permits).

Never directly studied Wing Chun, but I dig the "centerline" theory taken from it.

I am curious about Hsing I.... don't know much about it.

 

Hi, HMC.

You have a great lineage in JKD. My teacher's teacher (a strange man named Chris Casey) had a Jun Fan teaching certificate from Taky Kimura, so we have a little bit of that in what we teach.

I'm incurable though in my love for the southern shaolin. Wing Chun is great stuff, and I incorporate some of the principles in my teaching. Chris Casey also had a teaching certificate from Lo Man Kam, Yip Man's nephew.

Hsing I is one of the three "internal" arts, meaning they concentrate a lot on the mental aspects. It has some similarities to JKD in that it has a few basic techniques and no long forms. I trained in it a little, but it didn't grab me.

Maybe you can come to Japan someday. I sponsor a week-long clinic/sight-seeing event every three years, so maybe in 2007.

God bless.

 

What is Christian Style Martial Arts, JoJ ? Shuto with love ? Jiyu Kumite with a smile ?

Back in those days when this old house wasn't creaky, I used to tie a 2nd dan black belt in Okinawan Karate round my wasp waist (sigh, to be young again).
Yuri Sazaki awarded me that belt after a lengthy and invigorating performance of the Kusanku-dai kata followed by the equally invigorating Gojushiho.
Before that, a black belt in Kodokan Judo.

 

]Hi, James.

I've never trained in TKD, but I have two friends who are 4th black in it. There are a lot of different brands out there, and some are a lot tougher than others. Of course, the more recent Olympic style stuff is nothing but sport, as you say.

So, you've seen some of the UFC. Ever see any of the Pride fights from here in Japan? [/QB][/QUOTE]

I have seen some Pride/K-1 Fights. Two of my favorites are Bas Rutten and Maurice Smith, though I think both are getting a little old for full-contact MA and I haven't seen any Pride fights lately.

The Olympic style TKD is exactly what I was trying to say. It looks beautiful and requires lots of practice and athleticism, but I just don't consider it to be a true martial art like so many of the other styles mentioned in this thread.

There are indeed some forms of TKD that are good, "hard" fighting styles. Some TKD schools teach their students what is basically full-contact kickboxing, but unfortunately the school I attended was nothing like that.

(I was trying to quote "JohnofJapan" from above, but just realized that I messed it up. Sorry.)

 

That would be cool. I have a friend and former sensei in Japan. He almost broke my nose once in a demonstration (elbows hurt). His site is at http://www.ginkage.net/ His name is Danny Woosley. If you check out his site, you will see Tim Hoover. He is a brother in Christ and he is the second Dan I mentioned in an earlier post. I have no idea what the brand of Shao Lin was that I took way back in '85. I did not stay with it long.

Appreciate the invite and insight, bro.

 

Hi, pinoybaptist.

Love is the ONLY way to shuto someone, not? And if your jiyu kumite isn't done with a smile, you're probably the one getting pounded, right?

Sounds like you had some excellent karate teaching back in the day. Hey, my body is a little creaky at 54, but I still love a good kata or kumite session!

To the best of my knowledge, the first person to do Asian martial arts specifically as a Christian was a Shorin Ryu brown belt named Mike Crain, a student at Tennessee Temple College in 1966. An evangelist said to him, "Mike, why don't you do your karate for Christ?" That launched Mike's career as a karate evangelist. He teamed together with a Kodokan Judo black belt named Frank Barlow and founded "Judo and Karate for Christ" in 1967.

Also in the late 1960's an evangelistic team was formed at Bob Jones U. (yep, that BJU) by a Judo black belt named Bill Bartlett, with a "Karate for Christ" team being formed not long after. I got my 2nd brown at Judo in 1971 as well as a karate green belt, and did one non-evangelistic demo with the Judo team, and they were pretty good.

I transferred to Tennessee Temple in 1972 and met Mike Crain, who by then had become a black sash in White Dragon Kung Fu under the notorious Danny Pai. I took kung fu from Crain's students, and got my first black sash from Crain in 1977. I had the privilege of doing some demos with Mike, and even got beat up by him on TV in '74.

Since those early days a whole movement has grown up, with a lot of people in a lot of organizations doing evangelistic martial arts demos and starting church ministries. The GMAU, with which I am affiliated, majors on an approach wherein you start a martial arts class affiliated with a church, and have Christian requirements to go up through the ranks: memory verses, working in the church, etc. It's a really fun and effective way to serve the Lord!

 

Neat website. God bless.

[ December 15, 2005, 03:20 AM: Message edited by: John of Japan ]

 

John of J:

So, you knew the days when the martial art performer was judged not only by the way he delivered his kicks and blows, but by the way he maintained his balance, style, and center of gravity, and the way he shifted his weight when attacking or defending.
I miss those days.
Today, no disrespect to anyone, the touted 'martial arts' is simply two guys trying to make the other bleed and run, the stance more of boxers than karate-do, and the punches hardly recognizable as thrusts or whatever in karate.
Again, no disrespect to anyone, but, personally, I don't like full contact anything if it takes away the beauty and balance of the executions.

 

Completely agreed, pinoybaptist.

And though I'm mostly kung fu, I did start out in karate, and I've always loved to see a well-trained karateka do kata, especially one trained by a Japanese such as you were. The Japanese do kata with such precision. One of my best friends from college days up till now was a Gojukai shodan before we kung fu dudes got him, and I still love to watch him do his goju kata. I hosted a clinic over here last year and he came and had a ball doing kata with a Japanese pastor friend of mine, 2nd black in Shotokan--poetry in motion.

And that doesn't mean that in our day the sparring competition was for wimps, either, right? Until Jhoon Rhee invented that protective gear, we didn't use anything at all. My first safety gear was a football mouthpiece. I later bought football handpads, which I wore basically cause I thought they looked cool. And the "sundome" non-contact tournaments--weren't!!

 

Hi, Vasco. Look back a little. Uncharted Spirit was just talking about Capoeira.

Have you learned some Capoeria yourself, Vasco? </font>[/QUOTE]Yes I pracitce it in Brasil, basically because it is less expensive there than it is here also, in Brasil they stick closely to the tradtions, here it is seen more as a "fitness" much like TaeBo or Step Aerobics or Pilates, a flavor of the month. Most Brasilians are proud, very proud of a few things, Futebol (soccer), Samba, and Capoeira to name a few.

 

In Brasil, in Capoeira, I remember what my first Mestre said: In Capoeira, if you hit someone, it is your fault. If you get hit, it's your fault. There is much argument as to if it is in fact a martial art or not, but in Brasil, they will tell you it is. I have seen street fights where (Capoeira) moves were used. I have a friend who has taught a mixture of Capoeria and BJJ together.

 

Just tell my mom that, or I'll have to wait on any sports untill I'm eighteen, where I'll be too busy trying to get food, shelter, and a job to pay for it....
But I never doubted the martial art in Capoeira, btw did you have Preguica or Acetuno? That's exactly waht they say, and I've also trained with Accordion, he's much easier to understand what he's saying. I think it is a martial art, as are many African Dances suprisingly, evenmany of the ones for women are actually forms of self-defense. I can't remember their names unfourtanately, but they're a lot of them taught here around the Bay. I also heard the Cherokee launched a martial art to produce income for the tribes....is that true? I however love the dance, the music, and tje roda, I guess the focus is to distract the opponent with the rythem in your moves, but the fun lies more in playing in that rythem. The unity in the music takes away the malice and aggression and turnes it into a more colorful art than Akido. E mata, sure, but you would never see that inside the group, unless you witness the Sao Bento rythem. I also love the songs in Guaranabara II and Axe III, but I can't get the lyrics to them.

 

If you can train with Acordeon, do so, he is one of the best, and one of the first to bring Capoeira to the States.