Mary always a virgin?

[robycop3]

I am still waiting for you to post the verse(s) which states Mary had six subsequent maternities.

Matt. 13:55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, a]">[a]Joses, Simon, and Judas? 56 And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?” 57 So they were offended at Him.But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house.”

Unless you have support, this dogma-like belief in Mary's subsequent maternities is nothing more than imagination and guesswork.

Scripture doesn't get any plainer than that which I posted above.

(RE: Mt. 13:55 This has been addressed --> Those "brothers" are identified as sons of Mary of Clopas. Hence they cannot be uterine siblings of Jesus.)

Sorry; that hippo won't fly.

The end of THAT notion: John 19:25Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
Notice the punctuation of that verse. Clearly, the wife of Clopas was ANOTHER MARY!

You may check that verse in any valid Bible translation you wish, but you won't find a different message in the different wordings.

 

[Stephen Green]

How you explain Jude and James?

James and Joseph, sons of Clopas (Matthew 27:56 = John 19:25)
Jude = Brother of James (Jude 1:1)
Simon? Not clear from Bible but Eusebius says he is also son of Clopas.

These are the only “brothers” (adelphoi) of Jesus, though the Septuagint translates the Hebrew “ahim” (cousins) as “adelphoi” re: relation between Abraham & Lot as well as Jacob and Laban, so…

So much for the “brothers” of Jesus. As for Mary and Joseph, the Bible nowhere mentions that either of them had other sons or daughters.

Looks like there’s probably a solid reason the early church believed in her perpetual virginity.

 

[Oseas3]

Out of the heart proceed EVIL THOUGHTS, FALSE WITNESS, BLASPHEMES, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, and defile the man. Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Matt.15

Revelation 22:v.11-18
Get ready

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: (it won't be clean, no, never more) and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever LOVETH and MAKETH A LIE.
Out of the heart proceed EVIL THOUGHTS, FALSE WITNESS, BLASPHEMES, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, and defile the man.

 

[Campion]

Oh, pshaw! There are several Marys mentioned in the same time frame.
Matt. 27:56among whom were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s sons.
Matt. 27:61And Mary Magdalene was there, and the other Mary, sitting opposite the tomb.
Mark 15:409There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the Less and of Joses, and Salome,
Luke 10:39And she had a sister called Mary, who also sat at Jesus’ feet and heard His word.
Martha's sister)
AND HERE'S THE CLINCHER:John 19:25Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
Clopas is another name for Cleophas! So your supposition goes "POOF!"

Poof, there goes your straw man.

No one is denying there are people in the Scriptures with the same name. What was asked of you is to provide evidence in Scripture of two other PAIRS with the same names and same age orders.

Once again, St. Matthew identities James and Joses as the sons of Mary of Clopas Mt. 27:56. To support your assertion that they are a different pair of James and Joses from Mt. 13:55, you would need to show me an example of two other pairs with the same names and same age orders, e.g. show me two different Mary and Marthas in one gospel, two James and Johns in one gospel, etc.

Such an improbable occurrence must show evidence of elsewhere in Scripture to be credible.

Why, there IS, TOO! I recently posted Matt. 13:55-57!

Again, because Mary of Clopas is listed as their mother in Matthew 27:56 and this same Mary of Clopas is listed as the Virgin Mary’s "sister" in John 19:25, we know that they could not be an actual uterine sibling of Jesus.

And also, Mary was a real person. But the IDEA that Mary remained a virgin came from Athene-worship.

Can you demonstrate where Christians adopted the worship of Athena? For example, are there any liturgical texts, iconography, etc. depicting Athena and associating her with Christianity?

And Mary was that mother. She was also the mom of other children.

I am still waiting for you to post the verse(s) stating Mary had other children.

 

[Campion]

Matt. 13:55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, a]">[a]Joses, Simon, and Judas? 56 And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?” 57 So they were offended at Him.But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house.”

Scripture doesn't get any plainer than that which I posted above.

It sure does. Scripture tells us James is the brother of Joses, Jude and Simon. He is the son of Clopas and Mary the wife of Clopas (Matthew 27:56, John 19:2). Because Mary of Clopas is listed as his mother (Matthew 27:56) and this same Mary of Clopas is listed as the Virgin Mary’s sister (John 19:25), we know that he could not be an actual uterine sibling of Jesus.

As I mentioned previously, the term "brother" in Jewish antiquity had a much broader meaning than we modern Westerners use. It was not used to exclusively denote a uterine or agnate sibling.

There is a reason Scripture calls Jesus THE son of Mary and not A son of Mary.

Sorry; that hippo won't fly.

The end of THAT notion: John 19:25Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
Notice the punctuation of that verse. Clearly, the wife of Clopas was ANOTHER MARY!

You may check that verse in any valid Bible translation you wish, but you won't find a different message in the different wordings.

A comma? Perhaps you are unaware, but Aramaic and Greek did not contain punctuation until centuries after Christ.

Here is John 19:25 in the Codex Sinaiticus from the 4th century...

Codex Sinaiticus - See The Manuscript | John |

Notice there are no commas.

You have the burden of proving there are two sets of "James and Joses" in the Scriptures that St. Matthew references (in 13:55 and 27:56).

 

[AustinC]

@Campion

Matthew 1:24-25
When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded and took Mary as his wife. But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

This clearly shows that Joseph and Mary had sex after Jesus was born.

Luke 2:23
The law of the Lord says, “If a woman’s first child is a boy, he must be dedicated to the Lord.”

This implies that Mary had more than one child.

Matthew 13:54-56
He returned to Nazareth, his hometown. When he taught there in the synagogue, everyone was amazed and said, “Where does he get this wisdom and the power to do miracles?” Then they scoffed, “He’s just the carpenter’s son, and we know Mary, his mother, and his brothers—James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas. All his sisters live right here among us. Where did he learn all these things?”

These are real children of Mary and Joseph. Nothing in the text reveals anything other.

John 2:12
After the wedding he went to Capernaum for a few days with his mother, his brothers, and his disciples.

Real children of Mary...

@Campion , you have to pretzel away the word of God and ignore scripture to hold to Mary being a perpetual virgin.

 

[robycop3]

It sure does. Scripture tells us James is the brother of Joses, Jude and Simon. He is the son of Clopas and Mary the wife of Clopas (Matthew 27:56, John 19:2). Because Mary of Clopas is listed as his mother (Matthew 27:56) and this same Mary of Clopas is listed as the Virgin Mary’s sister (John 19:25), we know that he could not be an actual uterine sibling of Jesus.

Just as there were different Marys, there were different jameses & Joseses. (Remember "James the Lesser"!)

As I mentioned previously, the term "brother" in Jewish antiquity had a much broader meaning than we modern Westerners use. It was not used to exclusively denote a uterine or agnate sibling.

But in Jesus' case it was.

There is a reason Scripture calls Jesus THE son of Mary and not A son of Mary.

That same verse in Mark calls Him THE carpenter. Joseph was a carpenter as well.

A comma? Perhaps you are unaware, but Aramaic and Greek did not contain punctuation until centuries after Christ.

Here is John 19:25 in the Codex Sinaiticus from the 4th century...

Codex Sinaiticus - See The Manuscript | John |

Notice there are no commas.[/QUOTE]

It sure does. Scripture tells us James is the brother of Joses, Jude and Simon. He is the son of Clopas and Mary the wife of Clopas (Matthew 27:56, John 19:2). Because Mary of Clopas is listed as his mother (Matthew 27:56) and this same Mary of Clopas is listed as the Virgin Mary’s sister (John 19:25), we know that he could not be an actual uterine sibling of Jesus.

As I mentioned previously, the term "brother" in Jewish antiquity had a much broader meaning than we modern Westerners use. It was not used to exclusively denote a uterine or agnate sibling.

There is a reason Scripture calls Jesus THE son of Mary and not A son of Mary.




A comma? Perhaps you are unaware, but Aramaic and Greek did not contain punctuation until centuries after Christ.

Here is John 19:25 in the Codex Sinaiticus from the 4th century...

Codex Sinaiticus - See The Manuscript | John |

Notice there are no commas.

You just won't give up trying to prove a false doctrine, will you?
No, Mary Clopas is not listed as Mary Joseph's sis.Read John 19:25 in various translations. I believe all those translators know or knew a little more than you about how that verse should read in English.

You have the burden of proving there are two sets of "James and Joses" in the Scriptures that St. Matthew references (in 13:55 and 27:56).

VERY EASY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
John 19:25 proves it nicely.

ICB
Jesus’ mother stood near his cross. His mother’s sister was also standing there, with Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.

AMP
So the soldiers did these things. But standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, His mother’s sister [Salome], Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.

CEV
Jesus' mother stood beside his cross with her sister and Mary the wife of Clopas. Mary Magdalene was standing there too.

Mark 16:1Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him.

There are THREE women mentioned in that verse.

"Salome" was a common name in those days as well. Obviously, this isn't the one who danced for Herod.
There were at least 3 Marys present.
It all comes back to Matt. 13:55, which plainly shows Jesus' mom had at least 6 other children. And again, remember why the Nazarenes mentioned them. They were wondering why Jesus was so much superior in power and wisdom than the rest of His earthly family.

Try to believe SCRIPTURE insteada what some meat head told you. "Papal bull" is JUST THAT!

Now, you may contact people who know & read Koine Greek to verify the translations for yourself.

 

[Cathode]

@Campion

Matthew 1:24-25
When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded and took Mary as his wife. But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

This clearly shows that Joseph and Mary had sex after Jesus was born.

Luke 2:23
The law of the Lord says, “If a woman’s first child is a boy, he must be dedicated to the Lord.”

This implies that Mary had more than one child.

Matthew 13:54-56
He returned to Nazareth, his hometown. When he taught there in the synagogue, everyone was amazed and said, “Where does he get this wisdom and the power to do miracles?” Then they scoffed, “He’s just the carpenter’s son, and we know Mary, his mother, and his brothers—James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas. All his sisters live right here among us. Where did he learn all these things?”

These are real children of Mary and Joseph. Nothing in the text reveals anything other.

John 2:12
After the wedding he went to Capernaum for a few days with his mother, his brothers, and his disciples.

Real children of Mary...

@Campion , you have to pretzel away the word of God and ignore scripture to hold to Mary being a perpetual virgin.

There are good reasons why all Christianity has always held to the perpetual virginity of Mary, and from the beginning.

“Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”

Mary’s Virginity is a perpetual sign of Christ’s divinity.

 

[Oseas3]

Book of Tehillim (Psalms):Psalms: 64

64:1 Hear my voice, O God, in my prayer: preserve my life from fear of the enemy.

64:2 Hide me from the secret counsel of the wicked; from the insurrection of the workers of iniquity:

64:3 Who whet their tongue like a sword, and bend their bows to shoot their arrows, even bitter words:

64:4 That they may shoot in secret at the perfect: suddenly do they shoot at him, and fear not.

64:5 They encourage themselves in an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

64:6 They search out iniquities; they accomplish a diligent search: both the inward thought of every one of them, and the heart, is deep.

64:7 But God shall shoot at them with an arrow; suddenly shall they be wounded.

64:8 So they shall make their own tongue to fall upon themselves: all that see them shall flee away.

64:9 And all men shall fear, and shall declare the work of God; for they shall wisely consider of his doing.

64:10 The righteous shall be glad in the LORD, and shall trust in Him; and all the upright in heart shall glory.


THE WORD IS GOD

 

[Cathode]

Protestantism doesn’t recognise Mary as God’s Sign.

“Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”

“ A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.”

She is the Sign given by God in Isaiah and Revelation.

 

[Oseas3]

Matthew 24:v.30
Then shall appear the Sign of the Son of man in heaven(heaven has nothing to do with sky): and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn (earth is Israel, the dry land, the clay-Isa.64:v.8), and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds(clouds? Psalms 97:v.2) of heaven with Power and Great Glory.

Matthew 12:v.46 to 50

46 While JESUS yet talked to the multitude, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

48 But JESUS answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

49 And JESUS stretched forth His hand toward His disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.


Then shall APPEAR the Sign of the Son of man in heaven...

Then shall JESUS say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye CURSED, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his messengers:Matt.25:v.41

 

[Cathode]

Matthew 24:v.30
Then shall appear the Sign of the Son of man in heaven(heaven has nothing to do with sky): and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn (earth is Israel, the dry land, the clay-Isa.64:v.8), and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds(clouds? Psalms 97:v.2) of heaven with Power and Great Glory.

Matthew 12:v.46 to 50

46 While JESUS yet talked to the multitude, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

48 But JESUS answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

49 And JESUS stretched forth His hand toward His disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.


Then shall APPEAR the Sign of the Son of man in heaven...

Then shall JESUS say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye CURSED, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his messengers:Matt.25:v.41

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning

This thread will be closed no sooner than 6 am EST / 300 am PST

 

[AustinC]

There are good reasons why all Christianity has always held to the perpetual virginity of Mary, and from the beginning.

“Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”

Mary’s Virginity is a perpetual sign of Christ’s divinity.

And there it is.
When God does not confirm the teaching of Rome...just fall upon tradition...as though such an argument has any validity without God backing it up.
@Cathode, you just lost any credibility by falling on Rome's sword. In doing such, you mirror the Pharisees, Saducees and the entire Jewish politic that knew nothing of God, but clung to their traditions to the death (70CE).

It is very clear that Mary and Joseph worshipped God by being sexually active and bringing many children to grow up with Jesus.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

As this thread has gone into the RCC weeds it is closed.