Mary and Luke 1:28

[Marcia]

I think this is part of the mystery of the incarnation. Since it involves God's nature, it is impossible for us to entirely understand.

We know Jesus was fully God and fully man, born of a woman, yet without sin. I do not think he had a sin nature because none of the Persons of the Trinity can have a sin nature.

There is a raging debate about the sin nature in Other Christian Denominations:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=56479

 

[Marcia]

It's not that women did not inherit sin - it's that the blood comes from the father. Jesus' blood did not come from Mary, it never mingled with Mary's. There was no need for any special sac, as no baby in the womb ever shares it's mother's blood.

The Bible seems to indicate that sin is passed down through the father - there is evidence to say that the blood is how that happens.

Where is the biblical support for belief that sin comes from the blood of the father?

 

[bapmom]

It's more than a part of the mystery though Marcia. To claim Mary was sinless is giving her the nature of Deity

 

[Marcia]

It's more than a part of the mystery though Marcia. To claim Mary was sinless is giving her the nature of Deity

I wasn't referring to Mary being sinless, just to the reason as to why we cannot fully explain/understand the incarnation.

Btw, Roman Catholics explain it this way: Mary was not sinless but was given previent (sp?) grace, which means her sins were pardoned before her birth or at her birth. Of course, I do not agree with this, but this is how they explain it.

 

[bapmom]

here's a couple of the verses I was referring to when I said there is "evidence" to argue that viewpoint



Rom 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Lev 17:11For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.

 

[bapmom]

I wasn't referring to Mary being sinless, just to the reason as to why we cannot fully explain/understand the incarnation.

Btw, Roman Catholics explain it this way: Mary was not sinless but was given previent (sp?) grace, which means her sins were pardoned before her birth or at her birth. Of course, I do not agree with this, but this is how they explain it.

ahh!

I see

 

[Marcia]

here's a couple of the verses I was referring to when I said there is "evidence" to argue that viewpoint



Rom 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Lev 17:11For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.

I'd have to research it, but I'm pretty sure the reference to "all men" in Rom. 5 means everyone - men and women.

I disagree that Lev. 17 is evidence for your view about sin passing through blood. I don't think the sin nature is physical - it's our whole being body/mind/soul that is tainted.

 

[Jim1999]

Is sin a part of the essence of humankind, or a state of being, quite apart from human physical and mental essence?

Adam was already a man, and Eve a woman when they were declared sinners. It wasn't in the blood. Disease is passed along in the blood as one means.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[bapmom]

I'd have to research it, but I'm pretty sure the reference to "all men" in Rom. 5 means everyone - men and women.

yes, all of us have fathers

I disagree that Lev. 17 is evidence for your view about sin passing through blood. I don't think the sin nature is physical - it's our whole being body/mind/soul that is tainted.

yes, but I believe God made us integrated beings, so that something which is physical (blood) can and does affect that which is spirit and soul

 

[bapmom]

Is sin a part of the essence of humankind, or a state of being, quite apart from human physical and mental essence?

Adam was already a man, and Eve a woman when they were declared sinners. It wasn't in the blood. Disease is passed along in the blood as one means.

Cheers,

Jim

How do you know it wasn't in their blood? The very act of the Fall changed them fundamentally - not just their spirit and soul - but also their physical being.

 

[Marcia]

yes, all of us have fathers





yes, but I believe God made us integrated beings, so that something which is physical (blood) can and does affect that which is spirit and soul

Well, I still don't think you've made your case from the Bible. Lev. 17 is showing that blood is necessary to atone for sin, a foreshadowing of Jesus shedding blood on the cross for the penalty for sins. It is not about passing sin in he blood.

Rom. 5 is stating that sin spread to everyone due to Adam's sin. God holds Adam accountable, but everyone is born with a sin nature and is a sinner. The Bible does not tell us it comes biologically from the father or from men.

 

[webdog]

I'd have to research it, but I'm pretty sure the reference to "all men" in Rom. 5 means everyone - men and women.

I think she was referencing "one man" early in the verse, which was not Eve. Sin spread to all men through Adam.

 

[Jim1999]

Not all believe in the trinity of humankind either. There is strong biblical debate for the dichotomy of man: body, soul/spirit, then trichotomy; body, soul, spirit.

Hard to argue from this aspect of humankind.

We still haven't addressed the question of how Mary could carry a
baby sinless when she is herself a sinner.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[webdog]

We still haven't addressed the question of how Mary could carry a
baby sinless when she is herself a sinner.

...nor how a sinless Christ can die physically if death is the result of sin.

Some things won't be explained. Mary was a sinner who had a sinless Child, who died a sinner's death.

 

[mparkerfd20]

...nor how a sinless Christ can die physically if death is the result of sin.

Some things won't be explained. Mary was a sinner who had a sinless Child, who died a sinner's death.

I'm still working on the Mary was a sinner who had a sinless Child, but can answer your second "unknown".

2 Cor. 5:21 Answers the second part for us:

2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

Christ died a sinner's death, because He became sin for us. Hence, the penalty of sin was upon Him... including physical death.

 

[Me4Him]

Rom 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Lev 17:11For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.

You're close. :thumbsup:

Adam sin condemned all flesh, but Adam sin didn't condemn "other souls",

Sins of the soul must be commited by the soul, they are not inherited.

For a soul to sin it must posses the "knowledge of good/evil", (the law) and deliberately transgress the law,

Sin is transgressing the law, no law, no sin imputed.

Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

We're all born into a body of sin, (flesh) but sin is not imputed until we're conscience of the law, the reason for the "Age of Accountability" doctrine.

The "Day of Atonement" feast required two goats sacrificed, one the "scapegoat" (Jesus) and the other Goat "for the people", which represent our "body of sin".

This is where your verse applies.

Le 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

We have to be as willing to crucify/sacrifice the "life of the flesh" (blood) in exchange for the "Spirit of life" as Jesus was if we're too be saved, part of "conforming to his image".

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin (life of the flesh) might be destroyed,

Heb 9:22 and without shedding of blood (life of the flesh/blood) is no remission. (of sin)

Either "goat" sacrificed by it's self won't make atonement, both goats have to be sacrificed,

Jesus (Scapegoat) died that we "MIGHT BE" saved, by us sacrificing our goat (body of sin) both goat are sacrificed and "Atonement is complete" and the "MIGHT BE" is changed into "WILL BE" saved.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

 

[OldRegular]

I found the following on the Syracuse.com forum:

DOES say Mary was without sin. The original 
Greek word "kecharitomene" by which the 
angel addressed her indicates that she was 
in a permanent state of fullness of grace, 
which one cannot be unless one is sinless. 
If you are to find the fullness of Christ's 
truths, you cannot merely take someone's 
English translation of the Bible and view 
it from 21st century eyes. You MUST go 
back to the original text, if possible, 
and view it with the eyes of the Apostles. 
The ONLY way to do this is to view it 
from the eyes of the only organization 
that has kept the original meanings of 
Christ's teachings for 2000 years, the 
CATHOLIC Church. NO other Christian 
organization has been around as long. 
And, the Catholic Church has never 
changed any of Christ's teachings. Not 
once, in its 2000 year history.

Al one has to do is read the Canons of Trent to see that the following statement from the above is false: "And, the Catholic Church has never changed any of Christ's teachings. Not once, in its 2000 year history.

 

[Marcia]

We still haven't addressed the question of how Mary could carry a
baby sinless when she is herself a sinner.

Cheers,

Jim

The only way is that God orchestrated it. This is what I was saying before - it has to do with God's nature and so we can't dissect it or totally understand it. It's not illogical but it's beyond our ability to wrap our minds around.

I think the incarnation, the Trinity, and Jesus' death are at least 3 things that are hard to totally understand. We can only understand them in part.

 

[annsni]

This is what is termed the "Immaculate Conception". That is, that Mary was, from the time of her conception, free from original sin. It is also taught in the Catholic Church that she was free from sin for her entire life. (Says the Christian girl from the formerly Catholic family who went to Catholic school from 7th through 12th grades - LOL)

 

[Marcia]

This is what is termed the "Immaculate Conception". That is, that Mary was, from the time of her conception, free from original sin. It is also taught in the Catholic Church that she was free from sin for her entire life. (Says the Christian girl from the formerly Catholic family who went to Catholic school from 7th through 12th grades - LOL)

A Catholic told me, and she gave me a book defending Catholic beliefs (which I read), that explained that Mary was given grace and forgiveness before her birth (perhaps at conception) in order for her to be sinless to be Jesus' mother. Is this what you learned?