Mary, Did You Know?

I can't believe no one likes Little Drummer Boy!

I think it's a good song for the christian life...there's nothing I can really give Christ other than the talents and passions I have in life...such as music, or anything like that...I can't give him gold, frankenscense or myhrr...but I can give him my heart...my love, my talents, ultimately my life.

I think that's what the little drummer boy did too. He gave what he could, which was very little. It's a nice story of humility, generosity and love.


Granted I don't necessarily believe there was a real drummer boy, but at least the message of the song is nice.

J

 

Hey, I stood up for the little guy's right to have a drum! You do have some good points here, Jenesis. I think the song's a little overdone, though, to be honest. :smilewinkgrin:

 

Just how much did Mary know?
Mary, did you know
1. That your baby boy will one day walk on water?
2. That your baby boy will save our sons and daughters?
3. That your baby boy has come to make you new?
4. This child that youve delivered
Will soon deliver you
5. That your baby boy will give sight to a blind man?
6. That your baby boy has walked where angels trod?
7. And when you kiss your little boy
Youve kissed the face of god
8. The blind will see
9. The deaf will hear
10. And the dead will live again
11. The lame will leap
12. The dumb will speak
The praises of the lamb
15. That your baby boy is lord of all creation?
16. That your baby boy will one day rules the nations?
17. That your baby boy is heavens perfect lamb?
This sleeping child youre holding
Is the great I am

Luke 1
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

Mary knew
1. having a son
2. named Jesus
3.he will be great
4. called the Son of the Most High
5.the Lord God shall give Him the throne of his father David
6.He shall reign over the house of Jacob forever
7. of His kingdom there shall be no end
8.the child is a "holy thing' shall be called the Son of God
Most of it confusing at best for someone who did not know the story before hand like we now know it.

From the song,
the things Mary could not have known, unless she knew all things before they happened, then she'd be God,

1. That your baby boy will one day walk on water?
2. That your baby boy will give sight to a blind man?
3. The blind will see
The deaf will hear
And the dead will live again
The lame will leap
The dumb will speak
The praises of the lamb


Mary may have know some of this, suspected some, but not known all of it, from what little she was told.

1.That your baby boy will save our sons and daughters?
2.That your baby boy has come to make you new?
3.This child that youve delivered
Will soon deliver you
(requiring His death and resurection, how would she know this before He was born?)
4.That your baby boy has walked where angels trod?
5. And when you kiss your little boy
You've kissed the face of god
6.That your baby boy is lord of all creation?
7. That your baby boy will one day rules the nations?
8. That your baby boy is heavens perfect lamb?
9.This sleeping child youre holding
Is the great I am

So basically, unless mary was God, no she didn't know it all.

 

Great post, donnA!:thumbsup:

 

Very thought out, Donna... I'm impressed.

 

A rhetorical question has value... it makes people think. The song's another way to remind us how AWESOME Jesus' incarnation, life, death, and resurrection were.

 

TaterTot, what does Calvin Miller mean by this? It sounds like what I heard and believed in the New Age.

 

10-4. I like the song.

 

But surely the biblical objection to The Little Drummer-Boy is not whether he existed, but the fact that the words suggest that we sinners have something worthy to give to the Lord of all glory. In spite of verse 2 saying:

I am a poor boy too, pa rum pum pum pum
I have no gift to bring, pa rum pum pum pum
That's fit to give the King, pa rum pum pum pum ​

the third verse has him saying that he did have something to give to Jesus, and at least seems to imply the popular myth about Christianity - that as long as we do our best, God will be pleased with us:

I played my drum for Him, pa rum pum pum pum
I played my best for Him, pa rum pum pum pum,
rum pum pum pum, rum pum pum pum,
Then He smiled at me, pa rum pum pum pum
Me and my drum. ​

Even our hearts are no fit gift for Him. Until He Himself grants us newness of heart and life, we are "dead in trespasses and sins." The phrase "I gave my heart to Jesus" is unfortunate at the very least, and (as far as I am aware) neither that phrase nor anything similar is to be found in the bible. (I know you said that it is a good song for the christian life, but my impression is that it is more often sung in "the world" - in fact I have never heard it sung in a church service).

But, praise God, Jesus came to earth to die for sinners, to provide them with His perfect righteousness. As Paul writes in Philipians 3.7-9, verses which follow his list of his former attempts to "do his best":

7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ.
8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ
9 ¶ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;​

Every blessing,

 

"Do You Hear What I Hear" is my favorite Christmas song.

:jesus:

 

I was surprised this one on your "a" list, since it seems to have at least as many objectionable features as some of the others, as Joseph Smith pointed out.

I would be interested in seeing the other two verses. Can you post a link to them? These are written by someone else, as Watts' hymn in The Psalms of David (1719) contain only four verses, as far as I have been able to discover.

I was surprised that you find this one more objectionable than the rest. Though it is written from the perspective of the "kings"/wise men, the second verse speaks of Christ's Kingship, the 3rd of His Deity, the fourth of His suffering, death & burial and the 5th of His resurrection.

As far as the wise men being "kings", that arises from a time when that was a popular interpretation of passages such as Psalm 72:10,11, Isa. 60:6,9, et al. Even Matthew Henry wrote on Psalm 72:10 - "This was literally fulfilled in Solomon (for all the kings of the earth sought the wisdom of Solomon, and brought every man his present, 2 Chr. 9:23, 24), and in Christ too, when the wise men of the east, who probably were men of the first rank in their own country, came to worship him and brought him presents, Mt. 2:11." (Readers probably literalized the interpretation more than Henry) I don't agree with the interpretation that the wise men were kings, but that to me is a different kind of error that an obvious factual one such as getting the wise men at the manger when the Bible clearly puts them at a house.

Be that as it may, it seems the chief objectionable feature in this song, to most people, is "three kings", which can be easily rectified by simply substituting the words "wise men". I generally prefer not to change other people's hymns, but if such a minor change could remove the objections to the hymn, I would favor that.

 

Gayla, I wouldn't say that the words "Joy to the World" have not been sung to Nettleton. But I think folks might not try it more than once! "Joy to the World" is written in common meter -- a quatrain (four-line stanza) with alternating lines of iambic tetrameter and iambic trimeter (8/6/8/6). Nettleton is 8s.&7s. (sometimes called psalm meter) -- a trochaic quatrain with alternating lines of four feet and three and one-half feet (8/7/8/7). The stress is different and the second and fourth lines have one more syllable.

Common meter tunes that could be sung with "Joy to the world" (whether you would want to or not) include, for example, New Britain (Amazing Grace), Coronation (All Hail the Power), Martyrdom (Alas and did my Saviour bleed), Arlington (Am I a soldier), Pisgah (When I can read my title clear), etc.

 

I've been working on the "Nettleton" tune and think I've got it figured out. I'll try to type it out with the words under "Come Thou Fount". Hope this works . . .

Come Thou/ fount / of
Joy / to the/ world

every / bless/ -ing
the / Lord is/ come

Tune my/ heart/ to sing
Let / earth/ re-ceive

Thy / grace
her/ King

 

Hello,

I don't know the tune "Nettleton", as here in the UK "Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing" is usually sung to one of a number of Welsh tunes. However, I'm afraid I don't see how you can really make "Joy to the World" fit to any tune that fits "Come Thou Fount." The lines don't have the same number of syllables, and the stress comes in a different place in the two hymns:

Come, Thou Fount of every bless- ing
Tune my heart to sing Thy praise

compared with:

Joy to the world, the Lord is come,
Let earth re- ceive her King!

There are so many CM (Common Meter - 8686) tunes available to choose from, including Bishopthorpe, Lloyd, Lydia, Lyngham, Nativity (usually sung here to "Come let us join our cheerful songs"), Richmond, and several others, that I can't see why anyone should want to go to the trouble of trying to make CM words fit an 8787 tune.

I've just looked at the score of "Nettleton" on the Cyberhymnal site: http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/c/o/comethou.htm and it confirms what I thought, that you would need to twist the words of "Joy to the world" to make them fit. What's the point? (I'm not criticising - just wondering

May "Immanuel-God with us" bless you.

 

Bro David,
I was searching for the words to two additional verses that Helen had mentioned. (Didn't find any more verses.) And read on one of the Web-sites visited that "Joy to the World" had in the past been sung to the "Nettleton" tune, the one you linked from the Cyber Hymnal. It took a little time thinking about it, but it's not impossible.
When I read something like that, I am the type that will figure it out, or at least try to figure it out.

I tried to show that "Joy" is sung with a slur [move?]to the notes of "Come Thou".

"Fount" is divided into two eighth notes, "to the". (That's what the "/" is for.)

Not really "twisting", just changing where you move.



I kinda like the "Pisgah"("When I can Read My Title Clear") tune, though. (It's also alot easier to make it fit.:laugh: )

Merry Christmas, All!:wavey:

 

Pisgah is the one tune I go to more than any other in order to sing a common meter hymn for which I don't know a tune. It is an old tune that first found its way into print in 1817, though it is probably of an older oral tradition.

It is a staple in the "Sacred Harp" tradition. Are you familiar with that down in Valdosta? Hoboken's not too far away from you is it? That is a place rich in singing tradition.

http://www.valdosta.edu/music/SGFP/radio.htm
http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/nge/Article.jsp?id=h-549

 

I hadn't heard of Sacred Harp before the BaptistBoard. The sites you linked to are the most comprehensive I've seen on the subject.

Don't know how close Hoboken is, either . . .

 

I had forgotten, but there is actually a group that meets in Valdosta once a month.

http://www.atlantasacredharp.org/localgroups.html#valdosta

 

It can't be done. The tune for "Joy to the World" is "Antioch". Its meter is CM (common meter) which is 8.6.8.6. The meter for the tune "Nettleton" is 8.7.8.7.D(ouble). Comparing meters tells you whether you can sing the same words to different tunes. "New Britain", the familiar tune for "Amazing Grace", is also CM, but you can't sing "Joy to the World" to it because the accent is wrong.

My favorite weird metric coincidence is that you can sing the words to "You'll Never Walk Alone" to the tune of "Rocky Top", one of the many Tennessee state songs, and also a University of Tennessee fight song.


Tim Reynolds

 

Hey, you can sing just about any C.M. '8.6.8.6' words -- including Joy to the World and indeed Amazing Grace -- to the tune of House of the Rising Sun.

N.B. I am not suggesting that anyone should actually do so! It would be wrong of me, of course, to attempt to impose any kind of limitation upon the Lord's unlimitable capacity to enjoy the praise and worship of his creatures, but I can't help feeling that even He might draw the line at that particular 'joyful noise'??

By way of slightly belated consolation to Blackbird, clearly a victim of Little Drummer Boy phobia in need of a healing :1_grouphug:, herewith a streaming audio link to The LDB Foundation (courtesy of Mr. G. Keillor).

I'm always embarrassed by the drummer boy's obvious thyroid problem, (lento e molto lethargico ..... whump ..... whump ..... whump ..... whump ..... once per second already?)

And as for a mother's apparent belief that the very thing for swift recuperation from labor pains is having some brat whooping a drum in your and your baby's ears -- Mary, Hon, do you know anything?

Worst of all, I just can't handle that image of "The ox and lamb kept time." Mental pics of Bunyan -- not John's Progress, but Paul's Babe the Ox, accidentally trampling the tiny lamb while impersonating Toscanini conducting 'Beethoven Seven.' A truly sublime scene rendered truly ridiculous.

Oh, and if Nettleton forces one to sing something like "Joy to THER world, / THER Lord IZZ come ... " is it actually any worse than (depending which side of 'The Pond' you're on) "God save our GREYcious Queen" or "My country, TIZZ of thee"?

Wishing everyone amazing grace, hopefully accompanied by sweet sounds :smilewinkgrin: