Mary Queen of Heaven? What?

[Thinkingstuff]

I was speaking to my father who says the rosary occassionally. We got into a big argument about it. And as usually happens he tells me how messed up protestants are and I tell him that he needs to get saved. However, he was espousing this Hail Holy Queen prayer. Now the rosary is broken down into several parts. the first part has a crucifix then five beads each representing a set of prayers you pray then you have what is known as five decades. Or section of 10 beads seperated by a bead between each decade. The mechanics are you start by reciting the Signum Crucis (sign of the cross) then Symbolum Apostolorum (the Apostles' creed) then the Pater Noster also known as the Oratio Dominicae (the Our Father) all on the first bead then 3 Ave Maria or Salutatio Angelica (Hail Mary's) on the next 3 beads then the Gloria Patri or Doxologia Minor (Glory be) and Oratio Fatima or the Fatima prayer both on that bead. Then you pray a Pater Noster and 10 Ave Marias with the Gloria Patri and Oratio Fatima in succession five times ending this long list of prayer with Hail Holy Queen and while in community the Angelus. Sounds like a lot of babaling. Anyway, Today each of the five set of decades the Catholics focus on the "Glorious Mysteries". 1) the resurrection 2) the assention of Jesus 3) and the decent of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost 4) the Assumption of Mary and 5) the coronation of Mary in heaven.

First of all that's a lot of repetition and if you are focusing on something else why mumbling words to prayers I'm sure Marcia would say that is a form of eastern meditation. The spoken words act like a Mandala which is a visual relaxation technique where by you look at very semetrical pictures and can consentrate on meanings of things. the only difference I see is on is of verbal design and the other visual.

Next I bring into question an aspect of tradition with regard to the "glorious mysteries". If the Catholics are right about their tradition being Apostolic in origin then I have a serious question. Every important aspect of faith they thought was significant and basic to the believer they pretty much wrote it down. The Catholic can argue John 6 with regard to the Eucharist. Ok fine. Yet don't you think that if veneration (as it is practiced today) of Mary was key to spiritual promises as the Catholic church claims then wouldn't this even be aluded to in scripture? If such an important event like Mary was crowned in heaven to be its queen second only to God himself then wouldn't you think that scripture would allude to this? Yet the apostles vigorous in giving the promise of every spiritual gift and promise of God failed to mention this

1. Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive signal graces.
2. I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the Rosary.

3. The Rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies.

4. It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.

5. The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish.

6. Whoever shall recite the Rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its Sacred Mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just, he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life.

7. Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church.

8. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the Saints in Paradise.

9. I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary.

10. The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven.

11. You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the Rosary.

12. All those who propagate the Holy Rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities.

13. I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the Rosary shall have for intercessors the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death.

14. All who recite the Rosary are my children, and brothers and sisters of my only Son, Jesus Christ.

15. Devotion of my Rosary is a great sign of predestination.

No in fact they don't. Then the Catholic argument is that the rosary was given to St. Dominic in the 12th century. Ah but how is this tradition apostolic? How then is the veneration of Mary apostolic? If Mary was so important to the early community of believers then why is their no consensus on what happened to her? She went to live with John. And as far as scriptures that is it. According to Orthodox she died in southern Turkey and recieved an early resurrection which they call the Dormition. The Catholics don't have any idea where she was Assumed at but are certain she did and that she was crowned queen of heaven. This also by logic and reason cannot be apostolic because John ended up on Patmos and wrote a few letters and never said anything about it. And As I read the Patritic writings I find that the Gospel message is pretty much the same as the scritpures they quote. Their is not much diviation or apealing to "Apostolic Tradition" outside of what is already mentioned in scripture.

 

[annsni]

That quote box is frightening. Salvation by rosary. That's a new one on me.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

That quote box is frightening. Salvation by rosary. That's a new one on me.

Isn't it? It almost sounds like a Coke dispenser type of spirituality to begin with and then tack on all the promises of the rosary you really begin to wonder... What?

 

[lori4dogs]

Is there any scriptural basis for referring to Mary with the exalted title, "Queen of heaven"? The key is found in a strange and hidden place. In the greeting of Elizabeth to Mary at the visitation, we find her addressing Mary as a queen. She says, "Whence is it the Mother of my Lord should come me?" In Middle Eastern royal courts that title "Mother of my Lord" was reserved for one person, the queen mother, the mother of the king, who often ranked immediately after him in court protocol. What is remarkable here is that the older woman addresses a teenage girl with this senior regal title. She only does this because she is inspired by God to recognize that the virgin of Nazareth is pregnant with the Messiah, the King of Israel, Jesus the anointed One, the "Christ". But also note that she does not call him "the Lord", the title Luke also uses because it arose among the earliest Christians as the title of the risen triumphant Jesus, Kyrios, Lord of life and death. Elizabeth says "my Lord", the language of courtiers in any royal court of the time when referring to their monarch. Mary's queenship thus points directly to her Son, and is derived only from him. She is not a consort, but a Queen mother.

The other scriptural justification for the Marian title "Queen of heaven" is in Revelation 12, where we see the vision of the woman clothed with the sun, the moon beneath her feet, crowned with twelve stars. This is a complex double image - Mary, for she brings forth the Messiah child - and the Church, for she is persecuted by the devil, a dragon in the vision. Nonetheless, Mary is depicted as the queen of the universe.

It is also interesting that perhaps the oldest painting of Mary, in the Roman catacombs, shows her enthroned with her Son on her lap as the Magi approach. In the Fifth Century this was carved on the door of the basilica of Santa Sabina on the Aventine Hill in Rome but now the throne has a set of steps. This imagery reappears and develops in many later paintings, mosaics and statues up to our own times. The "Virgin enthroned" or the crowned Virgin is Mary the Queen.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Is there any scriptural basis for referring to Mary with the exalted title, "Queen of heaven"? The key is found in a strange and hidden place. In the greeting of Elizabeth to Mary at the visitation, we find her addressing Mary as a queen. She says, "Whence is it the Mother of my Lord should come me?" In Middle Eastern royal courts that title "Mother of my Lord" was reserved for one person, the queen mother, the mother of the king, who often ranked immediately after him in court protocol. What is remarkable here is that the older woman addresses a teenage girl with this senior regal title. She only does this because she is inspired by God to recognize that the virgin of Nazareth is pregnant with the Messiah, the King of Israel, Jesus the anointed One, the "Christ". But also note that she does not call him "the Lord", the title Luke also uses because it arose among the earliest Christians as the title of the risen triumphant Jesus, Kyrios, Lord of life and death. Elizabeth says "my Lord", the language of courtiers in any royal court of the time when referring to their monarch. Mary's queenship thus points directly to her Son, and is derived only from him. She is not a consort, but a Queen mother.

The other scriptural justification for the Marian title "Queen of heaven" is in Revelation 12, where we see the vision of the woman clothed with the sun, the moon beneath her feet, crowned with twelve stars. This is a complex double image - Mary, for she brings forth the Messiah child - and the Church, for she is persecuted by the devil, a dragon in the vision. Nonetheless, Mary is depicted as the queen of the universe.

It is also interesting that perhaps the oldest painting of Mary, in the Roman catacombs, shows her enthroned with her Son on her lap as the Magi approach. In the Fifth Century this was carved on the door of the basilica of Santa Sabina on the Aventine Hill in Rome but now the throne has a set of steps. This imagery reappears and develops in many later paintings, mosaics and statues up to our own times. The "Virgin enthroned" or the crowned Virgin is Mary the Queen.

An interesting view. However, what happen with just the simple reading of the mother of my Lord. Clearly John filled with the Holy Spirit lept for Joy not at the pressence of Mary but at his Lord. Clearly reacting to this recognition of the Holy Spirit Elizabeth makes a clear statement "mother of my lord" . However if you read about King Asa and the Queen Mother Maacah the term used to denote Queen Mother is not "mother of my Lord" but a more common use title Gebriah which means great lady. So it doesn't fit that following a different mid-eastern societies norm that Elizabeth would call the queen mother "mother of my Lord" but if she wanted to make that connection why wouldn't she have used Gebriah? Also note revelation is Apocalyptic literature and is symbolic. Just because the Woman their is crowned does not mean she is litterally so in heaven. But each thing is symbolic of who she is for instance she's jewish their for the 12 tribes of israel noted by stars as in Joseph's dream etc.....

 

[RAdam]

When Elisabeth said "mother of my Lord" she literally meant the mother of her Lord. To read into it some sort of recognition of her as queen is to take something the text never intends. For proof of this look at the next text: "For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy." The focus is on the Lord Jesus Christ, not as king, but as Lord. John leaps because his Lord is near. Elisabeth is able to understand this by the Holy Ghost and thus calls Mary the "mother of my Lord."

As far as Rev 12 goes, although there is maybe an allusion to Mary in the sense that she physically brought forth Christ and they were threatened by Herod and had to flee to Egypt, I think the vision is chiefly speaking of the church in the times of John and thereafter under great persecution. The source of this persecution is clearly shown - the dragon.

 

[Alive in Christ]

"Mary Queen of Heaven?"

Absolutely. The Catholic Cult of Rome does indeed consider her to be "Queen of Heaven".

And as is clearly evident, they worship their Goddess accordingly. :tear:

 

[Alive in Christ]

Annsni...

That quote box is frightening. Salvation by rosary. That's a new one on me."

This is Catholicsm. Goddess worship, Salvation through works. Salvation through Mary. Salvation through the Rosary. Salvation through Sacraments. Salvation through Baptism. Salvation by the Church. Salvation through "saints" who have been dead for centuries. Salvation through scapulars and icons, etc etc etc.

Salvation by practically anything and everything...except

Justification through Faith alone in Christ alone.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Catholic church of Rome has placed their CURSE upon the saving gospel. (justification by faith alone)

 

[lori4dogs]

Annsni...



This is Catholicsm. Goddess worship, Salvation through works. Salvation through Mary. Salvation through the Rosary. Salvation through Sacraments. Salvation through Baptism. Salvation by the Church. Salvation through "saints" who have been dead for centuries. Salvation through scapulars and icons, etc etc etc.

Salvation by practically anything and everything...except

Justification through Faith alone in Christ alone.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Catholic church of Rome has placed their CURSE upon the saving gospel. (justification by faith alone)

The Catholic Church does not teach that salvation is through anything else than the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[DHK]

The Catholic Church does not teach that salvation is through anything else than the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

What does the RCC teach when it says: "You must be born again."

 

[billwald]

Seems silly but harmless. Is anyone going to end up in Hell because they said the Rosary? I think not.

Any of you think you will be inviting St. Mary over for coffee and donuts?

 

[DHK]

Seems silly but harmless. Is anyone going to end up in Hell because they said the Rosary? I think not.

Any of you think you will be inviting St. Mary over for coffee and donuts?

Who would invite a dead person to do anything??
The only person I can think of to invite dead people is when Benny Hinn told his followers to put their dead loved ones (presumably loved ones who had recently died) in front of their TV sets during his next campaign, and touch the TV screen and they would be raised from the dead!!

Of course it never came to pass. He is a charlatan.
To think that Mary is alive is also erroneous doctrine.
She is still in the grave, and her body well putrefied, if not completely ashes.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Lori, you said...

"The Catholic Church does not teach that salvation is through anything else than the shed blood of Jesus Christ."

Faith alone, in the shed blood of Christ?

Lets see if thats true...

(bolding mine)

"Q. Does that mean that those who are "born again" are saved?

A. No! The Sacrament of Baptism provides the new birth that secures "eternal life" but not salvation. The eternal life that the Christian receives is his "first installment" [2 Cor. 1:22] towards salvation. Now, by the grace of God, the believer is obligated to walk his living faith in Christ. He must shine in the fruit of the Holy Spirit [Gal. 5:22-3] as a living stone. "Faith without works is dead." [Jas. 2:26]

Living his faith in Christ also implies that he must received the Sacrament of Confession to reinstate the righteousness that he received when he was baptized. While this Sacrament justifies him in the eyes of God, he is still not saved. He must received the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist in order to have life in him. The Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist saves the soul once it has met all the other conditions previously mentioned.


Q. But if I receive a new human spirit of the godly seed during the Sacrament of Baptism, even if I do not live my faith, am I not saved because I was born again?


A. Jesus said, "I tell you, to all those who have, more will be given; but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken way." [Lk. 19:26] "From those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away." What a powerful statement! How can you take away something from someone when he has nothing? From those who refuse to receive the Sacraments in a state of grace and who refuse to shine in the love and the light of Christ by the grace of God the Father and the power of the Holy Spirit, God's gift of the new creation that was received during the Sacrament of Baptism will be taken away. He will come short of the blessed hope of salvation.

As Saint Paul said, "For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life." [Eph. 2:10] We were created so good works would be our way of life. Having been born again through the gift of the new human spirit, we are indebted to God. In thanksgiving, we are obligated to embrace a willing heart that joyfully receives the Sacraments and performs good works as a way of life.

God have mercy.


http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu15.htm

 

[BobRyan]

I was speaking to my father who says the rosary ... Now the rosary is broken down into several parts. the first part has a crucifix then five beads each representing a set of prayers you pray then you have what is known as five decades. Or section of 10 beads seperated by a bead between each decade. The mechanics are you start by reciting the Signum Crucis (sign of the cross) then Symbolum Apostolorum (the Apostles' creed)

This is interesting. They say the Apostle's creed as part of the rosary?? how old is the Apostle's creed? It mentions the "communion of the saints" which the RCC interprets specifically as prayers to the dead.

If they are communicating with the dead - no wonder that Rosary quote box in the OP is as it is.

Sounds like a lot of babaling. Anyway, Today each of the five set of decades the Catholics focus on the "Glorious Mysteries". 1) the resurrection 2) the assention of Jesus 3) and the decent of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost 4) the Assumption of Mary and 5) the coronation of Mary in heaven.

The assumption of Mary is in the Rosary??

The "coronation of Mary in heaven"??

No wonder that quote box in the OP!!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

FATIMA PRAYER: Most Holy Trinity - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - I adore thee profoundly. I offer Thee the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifferences whereby He is offended. And through the infinite merits of His Most Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg of Thee the conversion of poor sinners.

 

[BobRyan]

And since the Apostles Creed is part of the Rosary --

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p5.htm

PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH
CHAPTER THREE
I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT
ARTICLE 9
"I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"
Paragraph 5. The Communion of Saints
946 After confessing "the holy catholic Church," the Apostles' Creed adds "the communion of saints." In a certain sense this article is a further explanation of the preceding: "What is the Church if not the assembly of all the saints?"477 The communion of saints is the Church.
947 "Since all the faithful form one body, the good of each is communicated to the others.... We must therefore believe that there exists a communion of goods in the Church. But the most important member is Christ, since he is the head.... Therefore, the riches of Christ are communicated to all the members, through the sacraments."478 "As this Church is governed by one and the same Spirit, all the goods she has received necessarily become a common fund."479
948 The term "communion of saints" therefore has two closely linked meanings: communion in holy things (sancta)" and "among holy persons (sancti)."
Sancta sanctis! ("God's holy gifts for God's holy people") is proclaimed by the celebrant in most Eastern liturgies during the elevation of the holy Gifts before the distribution of communion. The faithful (sancti) are fed by Christ's holy body and blood (sancta) to grow in the communion of the Holy Spirit (koinonia) and to communicate it to the world.

958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."498 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.

Getting the information from the source is always helpful.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Isn't it? It almost sounds like a Coke dispenser type of spirituality to begin with and then tack on all the promises of the rosary you really begin to wonder... What?

The Reformations (yes,plural) indeed happened for good reason. :saint:
(I have more to say about devotion to Mary, and hope to do so later)

 

[Agnus_Dei]

...and that she [Mary] was crowned queen of heaven...

Christ is Risen!

I'm not sure if this thread is about the Roman Catholic "Rosary" or about Mary's title as "Queen of Heaven"...since I'm Orthodox Christian and we don't recite a "Rosary",...I'll just comment on the "Queen of Heaven...

Here's what Orthodox Church Teaches:

A) The Queenship of Mary refers to Mary’s royal dignity as Mother of the King of Kings, Jesus Christ. It is a simple, straightforward relationship, found in the pages of scripture. That title takes nothing away from Jesus’ Kingship, but rather is a consequence of it.

1) Psalm 45:9 refers to the Queen Mother standing at the king’s right hand, arrayed in gold. Hebrews 1:8-9 applies this psalm to Jesus as Messianic King. By extension, Psalm 45:9 would then apply prophetically to the Messianic King’s Mother, Mary.

2) The New Testament: These texts provide the Old Testament background to Mary’s role in the New Testament. At the Annunciation, the angel Gabriel announced to Mary that she would conceive and bear a son whom she would name Jesus. Then Gabriel declared, The Lord God will give him the throne of his David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end (Lk 1:32-33). Since Jesus is certainly the Messianic King, it follows that Mary’s role is that of the Queen Mother of the Messianic King. This explains why St. Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, would say to her younger cousin, Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? (Lk 1:43).

3) This is the language of the royal court, with the subordinate (Elizabeth) addressing a royal superior (Mary). Elizabeth was honored, not merely by the presence, in utero, of the child Jesus, but also by Mary herself. Elizabeth said, Who am I that the Mother of my Lord should come to me? Elizabeth was honored by the presence of Mary because she is the Queen Mother of the Messianic King, Elizabeth’s Lord.

In XC
-

 

[Thinkingstuff]

This is interesting. They say the Apostle's creed as part of the rosary?? how old is the Apostle's creed? It mentions the "communion of the saints" which the RCC interprets specifically as prayers to the dead.

If they are communicating with the dead - no wonder that Rosary quote box in the OP is as it is.




The assumption of Mary is in the Rosary??

The "coronation of Mary in heaven"??

No wonder that quote box in the OP!!

in Christ,

Bob

Yes that was yesterday. But it brings up an important argument against "tradition" which is the core arguement between Catholics and Non Catholic Christians which I wanted Lori or Agnus or Matt to comment on because though I use the example of the Rosary its about tradition and the application of it in the faith. Specifically with regard to marian doctrine.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

FATIMA PRAYER: Most Holy Trinity - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - I adore thee profoundly. I offer Thee the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifferences whereby He is offended. And through the infinite merits of His Most Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg of Thee the conversion of poor sinners.

The Oratio Fatima is different in my mind than what you quoted. Its prayed like this in the rosary "Lord Jesus forgive us our sin, save us from the fires of hell and lead all souls into heaven especially those most in need of your mercy." I'm not familiar with the prayer you mention maybe it a novena to the sacred heart.