Mary Queen of Heaven? What?

[RAdam]

Indeed.


And they do so by ignoring the historical context in which the queen mother stood or sat at the right hand of the king in the kingdom of Judah.


This is speculation, not evidence based on the historical context.

Historical context? How about the context of the passage?

 

[billwald]

When the baby Jesus cried for his mother, who responded?

Personally, the old heresy that the Christ came upon Jesus when he was baptized computes but I can't officially "believe" it.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ is the Greek word for Messiah - it is an office - not a name.

The are not two persons in the incarnation - it is only one person - but two natures.

So Mary can pass on to her child - her own human nature - but she has no "God nature" to give.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Trotter]

Luke 2:34 - "And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."

The statement that a sword would pierce her own soul also is in parenthesis. The emphasis is on Jesus, the child.

Now, concerning the sword that would pierce Mary's heart also, consider Hebrews 4:12 - "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sigh: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession."

The sword that pierced her own soul is the same sword that laid bare the thoughts and intents of many a heart. An example of this is the changing of water to wine. She said to Him, "They have no wine." His response was, "Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come." Obviously He knew exactly what she wanted Him to do.

I didn't quote it incorrectly, unless your position is the New American Standard Bible got it wrong. However, I took a look at the KJV and other translations that use a parenthetical here and I see how the last part probably does relate back to the previous verse about the rising and falling of many in Israel.

However, the parenthetical is about Mary's future suffering as she watched her son die on the cross. Suggesting it is anything else is nonsensical effort to downplay the role of Mary.

RAdam gave the correct interpretation, Zenas. As Jesus said concerning the Holy Spirit:
And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
(Joh 16:8-11 ESV)

The Holy Spirit is part of the trinity of the Godhead, just as Jesus Christ is a part of the trinity. Jesus brought conviction to every soul who heard Him, and the Holy Spirit continues this work. Trying to assign this to Mary is eisigesis.

Christ is the Greek word for Messiah - it is an office - not a name.

The are not two persons in the incarnation - it is only one person - but two natures.

So Mary can pass on to her child - her own human nature - but she has no "God nature" to give.

in Christ,

Bob

Amen, brother.

 

[Zenas]

So you are saying that this text speaks of Mary's agony at the cross and somehow this agony played a part in redemption? Yet my position is nonsensical. Again, read Hebrews 4:12, it makes it absolutely plain what is under consideration.

Yes, I know this text speaks of Mary's agony at the cross. It's as plain as the nose on your face. Did this agony play a part in redemption? Perhaps, but I don't know. I do know that suffering in some strange way carries with it badges of holiness. Colossians 1:24; 1 Peter 4:1.

Hebrews 4:12 is referring to God's judgment after our deaths.

 

[RAdam]

So the Word of God spoken of in Hebrews 4:12, which was Christ by the way in case you didn't catch that, wasn't a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart while He walked here on earth? That's a new one on me. I seem to recall many times that He knew what people were thinking even if they didn't say it. By the way, Isaiah 49:2 says "he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword..." and that section chiefly respects the ministry of Jesus Christ.

If Mary played any part of redemption then Jesus didn't "by himself purge our sins."

 

[Zenas]

So the Word of God spoken of in Hebrews 4:12, which was Christ by the way in case you didn't catch that, wasn't a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart while He walked here on earth? That's a new one on me. I seem to recall many times that He knew what people were thinking even if they didn't say it. By the way, Isaiah 49:2 says "he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword..." and that section chiefly respects the ministry of Jesus Christ.

If Mary played any part of redemption then Jesus didn't "by himself purge our sins."

I'm not sure the "Word" or "word" as in most translations, is Christ. Of course Christ is omniscient but this isn't the text to prove it. As for your rendition of Hebrews 1:3, "by himself" appears only in the KJV. It is absent from all the modern translations I read with any regularity.

 

[RAdam]

I'm not sure the "Word" or "word" as in most translations, is Christ. Of course Christ is omniscient but this isn't the text to prove it. As for your rendition of Hebrews 1:3, "by himself" appears only in the KJV. It is absent from all the modern translations I read with any regularity.

Are you serious? That isn't text enough to prove it?

As for the Hebrews 1:3 thing, I think that accurately shows a problem I have with modern translations, meaning they weaken so many crucial theological points. Regardless, that isn't the only place where this is taught in the bible. I do believe I quoted other verses that support the "by himself" of Hebrews 1:3.

 

[BobRyan]

There is no text in all of scripture that says that Mary sufferred in our place - thus no vicarious atoning suffering on her part.

There is not text in all of scripture that says that Mary was sinless. No not one.

There is no text in all of scripture that says that Jesus was not sent as the Savior of the World - in fact He was also Mary's savior.

WHEN in scripture the attempt is made - in the very presence of Christ - to accredit Mary with some portion or some hand or some honor regarding Christ's ministry, the one offering praise to Mary starts off with "BLESSED BE your mother" (in this case not blessing her for vicarious suffering - but merely the more modest blessing for being the Mother of Jesus) -- and the response of Christ is... "ON THE CONTRARY..."

Suppose that every time a Catholic blessing was recited about Mary -- the Catholic Response was always the response of CHRIST HIMSELF who started with "ON THE CONTRARY"?

We would have a very differnt Catholic Church today.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Jedi Knight]

Mark 3:31-35 Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you."
"Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked.

Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."
Mary is not the mother of God.....she was only a servant willing to do Gods will and was blessed to be apart of Gods unfolding plan.

 

[lori4dogs]

Mark 3:31-35 Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you."
"Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked.

Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."
Mary is not the mother of God.....she was only a servant willing to do Gods will and was blessed to be apart of Gods unfolding plan.

"It is a great comfort to all true Christians, that they are dearer to Christ than mother, brother, or sister as such, merely as relations in the flesh would have been, even had they been holy. Blessed be God, this great and gracious privilege is ours even now; for though Christ's bodily presence cannot be enjoyed by us, his spiritual presence is not denied us." - Matthew Henry Commentary

Mary most certainly was Jesus's mother. Jesus is Divine. Therefore, common sense tells you she was Theotokos. Mary did not create God, she bore Him in her womb. You just hate the title which she rightfully deserves.

 

[Jedi Knight]

"It is a great comfort to all true Christians, that they are dearer to Christ than mother, brother, or sister as such, merely as relations in the flesh would have been, even had they been holy. Blessed be God, this great and gracious privilege is ours even now; for though Christ's bodily presence cannot be enjoyed by us, his spiritual presence is not denied us." - Matthew Henry Commentary

Mary most certainly was Jesus's mother. Jesus is Divine. Therefore, common sense tells you she was Theotokos. Mary did not create God, she bore Him in her womb. You just hate the title which she rightfully deserves.

No, I hate the false teaching that you have swallowed. Mary was His physical mother only and for people to put more into it than should be is demonic. Maybe your "common sence" should be replace with spiritual illumination.

 

[Trotter]

Jedi is right. Mary was a willing vessel for God to use to bring Jesus into this world... but that's it. that did not "exalt" her, nor did it earn her special favor. She was a sinner just like every other human being besides Jesus Christ. Mary has to accept salvation just like every other person who has ever been saved.

"Common sense" would tell you that a mother is not the same as her son, be He the Son of God or not. My father was a painter, but when my mother gave birth to me she did not automatically become a painter. I am a preacher, but my mother does not automatically become a preacher. And yet, because Mary gave birth to the life God placed within her womb, Catholics think she is somehow elevated to a sinless level and is equal to Christ. There is no "common sense" in any of what the RCC (or whatever flavor you choose) says.

The bible does not recognize Mary as anything other than a woman/girl who was willing to submit to God. Other than that she was as lost as any other Jew and in need of a Savior.

 

[lori4dogs]

"Common sense" would tell you that a mother is not the same as her son, be He the Son of God or not. My father was a painter, but when my mother gave birth to me she did not automatically become a painter"

And who is saying that Mary became like Jesus?? Certainly not I. I said that she bore Jesus who is Divine, therefore, she is the Mother of God. You refer to it as 'that life'. That life was either God or He was not. Do you believe Jesus is God? Catholics do. Catholics DO NOT think she is equal to Christ, Trotter. That is a total falsehood. It is that simple.

She did not create God nor is she God. She is not to be worshiped or adored. If Catholics use that kind of language when referring to her they are wrong. Only God is to be worshiped and adored, Period.

 

[lori4dogs]

Trotter, I will be away this weekend at a Catholic evangelism retreat. This retreat is given in the hope that the participants, most of them with no church affiliation, will come to repentance and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. The retreat does not center around the blessed Mother, not does it promote her as savior and Lord. Only Jesus.

 

[RAdam]

If Mary played a part in redemption, shouldn't she be honored as well?

 

[Trotter]

Trotter, I will be away this weekend at a Catholic evangelism retreat. This retreat is given in the hope that the participants, most of them with no church affiliation, will come to repentance and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. The retreat does not center around the blessed Mother, not does it promote her as savior and Lord. Only Jesus.

I hope you enjoy your retreat, but unless it offers Jesus and salvation by grace and grace alone it is not evangelistic.

Salvation is Jesus plus nothing... not Jesus plus sacraments, not Jesus plus baptism/sprinkling/whatever, not Jesus plus praying to saints. If it is not Jesus alone it is not salvation.

I said that she bore Jesus who is Divine, therefore, she is the Mother of God.

Mary is the mother (small "m") of Jesus. God has no mother. While Jesus is a part of the triune Godhead, Mary is nothing more than a woman who bore the Son of God. She is not the "Mother of God" in that she is elevated in any respect other than being willing. Venerating her is to worship someone other than God, just as praying to dead "saints" is doing the same thing.

 

[annsni]

"It is a great comfort to all true Christians, that they are dearer to Christ than mother, brother, or sister as such, merely as relations in the flesh would have been, even had they been holy. Blessed be God, this great and gracious privilege is ours even now; for though Christ's bodily presence cannot be enjoyed by us, his spiritual presence is not denied us." - Matthew Henry Commentary

Mary most certainly was Jesus's mother. Jesus is Divine. Therefore, common sense tells you she was Theotokos. Mary did not create God, she bore Him in her womb. You just hate the title which she rightfully deserves.

I find it interesting that a Catholic would use this commentary quote of Matthew Henry's. It shows that we are dearer to Christ than His mother, showing that His mother was no more holy or better than anyone else (kind of shoots down a lot of Catholic teaching on Mary); that Jesus had brothers and sisters (very hotly denied by the Catholic church); and that Christ's bodily presence cannot be enjoyed by us (hmmm - echarist anyone?).

So in posting what you did, you agree with Matthew Henry?

 

[annsni]

Trotter, I will be away this weekend at a Catholic evangelism retreat. This retreat is given in the hope that the participants, most of them with no church affiliation, will come to repentance and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. The retreat does not center around the blessed Mother, not does it promote her as savior and Lord. Only Jesus.

I can guarantee you that the retreat does not revolve around being saved by grace alone but instead around the Church's role in salvation.

 

[BillySunday1935]

I can guarantee you that the retreat does not revolve around being saved by grace alone but instead around the Church's role in salvation.

Just curious annsni - how can you "guarantee" this?