Mary Queen of Heaven? What?

[sag38]

Personally, I'm not concerned with how the early church worshipped if that worship contradicts God's word. It would have been wrong then just as it is wrong now.

 

[DHK]

Many Catholics have posted on this board over the years and not one of them ever advocated adoration of anything other than God Almighty.

Claims and practice are two different things.
Each time they claim it they have been proven wrong every single time.
Each time they have been proven how they adore, worship, and even make a god out of Mary. This cannot be denied.

 

[annsni]

Well, who says that the Bible is the only place that we can look?

If you believe that there are other sources of inspiration and direction for the Christian life, then you are not properly Baptist and I'm sure your pastor would like to speak to you on that.

Well, he did tell us that - and most of the Catholics that I know concur.

Well, the Catholics that you know don't know the true teachings of the church.

Trotter said:" . . . . praying to them would still be idolatry because prayer should only be to the Godhead."

What chapter and verse says this?

It doesn't need to because prayer is to one and only: the Trinity. There is no other who is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent who could hear the prayers of anyone.

You are equivicating prayer with worship. The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Look at Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

Yes, there are angels, cherebum, seriphem and such in heaven. This is not addressing humans.

"Those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth."

Please post the link you got your information from. It is wrong to post someone else's words without giving them credit - or allowing anyone to check the sources. Of course it's on many sites I've seen so it's copied and pasted a lot apparently. As for what is said here, who are the elders and why are there only 24 of them? Are there not many more saints in the Catholic church? Maybe the others are out on prayer duty? Oh - and note that the elders are not praying, are they? They are not interceeding, are they? Well, that there blows a big hole, doesn't it?

Well, scripture does not say that it is the sole authority for Christians regarding faith and morals. I would point you to the historical writings of the early church to see how they worshipped. So how do you address this?

The believer is to go to God - not the early church. The early church was in grave error in some cases - maybe read the New Testament letters to see how great some of the New Testament churches were doing. Maybe the Corinthians who were gloating in being tolerant of a man in sexual sin? Or maybe the Galatians who were putting themselves back under the law? Which church?

 

[Alive in Christ]

BillySunday..,.

"Well, who says that the Bible is the only place that we can look?"

God says it.

Couldnt be clearer.

In the scriptures.

Just as clear as Faith in Christ alone for justification is proclaimed, the truth of the scripture being our only source of authoritative truth is proclaimed.

Praise God.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Lori...

"Many Catholics have posted on this board over the years and not one of them ever advocated adoration of anything other than God Almighty."

Nonsense, Lori. Pure nonsense.

Catholics and Catholic sympathisers...including you...have consistently advocated adoration directed towards others than God Almighty.

Mary. Dead christians. Supposed *super duper* specially *holy* dead christians.

And dont come back with some sort of absurd and ridiculous *word games*, such as...

"Why, its not "Worship"...its "Veneration"! (*Wink Wink*, they'll fall for that!)

No...we wont fall for that. We are "people of the Book". The scriptures. We know better.

A pile of *you know what* stinks no matter what one calls that pile.

 

[Matt Black]

To answer TS' OP, no, I don't hold with the Rosary, for the reasons given by Doubting Thomas and also because it does not spring from the Tradition of the Undivided Church.

 

[lori4dogs]

Lori...



Nonsense, Lori. Pure nonsense.

Catholics and Catholic sympathisers...including you...have consistently advocated adoration directed towards others than God Almighty.

Mary. Dead christians. Supposed *super duper* specially *holy* dead christians.

And dont come back with some sort of absurd and ridiculous *word games*, such as...

"Why, its not "Worship"...its "Veneration"! (*Wink Wink*, they'll fall for that!)

No...we wont fall for that. We are "people of the Book". The scriptures. We know better.

A pile of *you know what* stinks no matter what one calls that pile.

So we are lying when we say we DON'T worship Mary or the saints?? Typical accusation on this board.

I know who and what I worship and I would have never left the Baptist church to become a Catholic if I believed what you are saying. I have been following the BB for years and have read all the 'proofs' that DHK and people like yourself have posted and it always comes down to accusing Catholics of lying when we assure you that we DON'T worship Mary or the saints.

 

[BillySunday1935]

BillySunday..,.
God says it.

Couldnt be clearer.

In the scriptures.

Well, then you should be able to show me from scripture where scripture says that about itself. (I.e. That scripture is the SOLE authority regarding matters of faith and morals for the Christian.)

Peace!

 

[DHK]

Well, then you should be able to show me from scripture where scripture says that about itself. (I.e. That scripture is the SOLE authority regarding matters of faith and morals for the Christian.)

Peace!

http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1537726&postcount=80

I did, on the previous page--post #80. Why don't you take the time to read it.

 

[BillySunday1935]

If you believe that there are other sources of inspiration and direction for the Christian life, then you are not properly Baptist and I'm sure your pastor would like to speak to you on that.

This is not a question of inspiration but rather one of authority - sole authority. Scripture never claims that about itself. History has a huge part to play as well.

It doesn't need to because prayer is to one and only: the Trinity. There is no other who is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent who could hear the prayers of anyone.

First you say that “…prayer is to one and only: the Trinity”

You are equivicating prayer with worship. The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Look at Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

Yes, there are angels, cherebum, seriphem and such in heaven. This is not addressing humans.

And when someone shows you directly from scripture that your position is biblically wrong (the prayer to the angles in Psalms 103) you suddenly imply that it is now OK to pray to angels?

Well, angles are not omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent either. So, how can they hear us? It is through the power of Jesus Christ. If Jesus can allow them to hear our prayers then he can allow the glorious saints in heaven to do so as well.

Peace!

 

[BillySunday1935]

http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1537726&postcount=80

I did, on the previous page--post #80. Why don't you take the time to read it.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Well DHK, by that logic the sole authority regarding faith and morals for Christians comes only from the Old Testament (Specifically Isaiah 8) as the New Testament was not even around. Care to try again?

 

[BillySunday1935]

snip...
The RCC says Mary is co-redemtrix with Christ, thereby declaring Mary as divine. "

I don't believe that to be Catholic dogma/doctrine.

They also believe she was sinless and perfect and many believe she was immaculately conceived as well.

The immaculate conception is Catholic Doctrine.

I am also well aware of the difference between intercessor and mediator. Jesus is both mediator and intercessor for us. snip...If you want to try to pick at words then go ahead.

Well, those were your words - words have meaning. I was simply correcting you as you did for me earlier.

A dead "saint" can't intercede for anyone."

Saints aren't dead Trotter and if you believe that they are, then you have serious theological issues well beyond my power to address.

Even if some of them were saved and are now in heaven, praying to them would still be idolatry because prayer should only be to the Godhead."

Ps. 103:20-21 disagrees with that.

You would be better served by discovering that salvation is the work of God, not in conjunction with any works by man. If it is man's work (of whatever kind) that brings about salvation then Christ died for nothing as He would be shown to not be enough to fulfill God's requirements.

I do not hold to a works based salvation. Now - write this 100 times.

If God can't save man through His own will and power then He is not God as He would then be less than omnipotent.

He can Trotter as He is God.

Peace!

 

[BillySunday1935]

So you are willing to go outside of God's word for salvation? Sorry, mate, but the canon has been closed for quite a while. Mormons and Catholics have ongoing revelation but we're talking about Christianity and true salvation.

I never said that I was willing to "...go outside of God's word for salvation". I go to God for that. There are more straw men around here than in a Wizard of Oz marathon!

Seriously, what I am challenging here is the validity of the idea that scripture is the SOLE authority regarding faith and morals for Christians. Scripture does not say that it is. If one believes that scripture is that SOLE authority, yet scripture never says that about itself, then one has a serious theological dichotomy.

This Sola Scriptura idea comes from the Reformation and is a man-made doctrine.

Peace!

 

[BillySunday1935]

It's a mystery to those who cannot accept the clear teaching of scripture. It's cultic to lift up others for adoration other than Jesus! Cults always lift up some other figure in the place of Jesus. Honoring people is way diffrent than the perversion of Idolitry that is being seen and explained away.

It is my understanding that Catholics only venerate Mary and the saints - adoration is reserved for God alone.

I believe the Greek is:
Dulia: veneration of the saints, honor betowed, etc.
Hyper-dulia: a higher form of veneration to Mary (still not adoration)
Latria: Adoration due to God alone

Peace!

 

[lori4dogs]

It is my understanding that Catholics only venerate Mary and the saints - adoration is reserved for God alone.

I believe the Greek is:
Dulia: veneration of the saints, honor betowed, etc.
Hyper-dulia: a higher form of veneration to Mary (still not adoration)
Latria: Adoration due to God alone

Peace!

Absolutely! Spot on!

 

[rbell]

It is my understanding that Catholics only venerate Mary and the saints - adoration is reserved for God alone.

I believe the Greek is:
Dulia: veneration of the saints, honor betowed, etc.
Hyper-dulia: a higher form of veneration to Mary (still not adoration)
Latria: Adoration due to God alone

Peace!

how convenient for you to discover non-English words that allow you to worship someone, without having to use the English word "worship."

Label it what you will...it's still unbiblical.

 

[BillySunday1935]

how convenient for you to discover non-English words that allow you to worship someone,"

The last time I looked, the New testament was written in "non-English" words - Greek.

without having to use the English word "worship."

What ever do you mean, rbell? The word "venerate" is English too. I used both.

Label it what you will...it's still unbiblical.

Only God knows a person's heart - that excludes you, I, or anyone deciding on what is vernation (honor) and what is adoration (worship).

What pomposity!

 

[BillySunday1935]

Claims and practice are two different things.
Each time they claim it they have been proven wrong every single time.
Each time they have been proven how they adore, worship, and even make a god out of Mary. This cannot be denied.

Well, DHK you've yet to "prove" it. To be honest, most of what the people in this thread have done thus far is to give their opinion. However, opinions do not an argument make.

 

[Jedi Knight]

It is my understanding that Catholics only venerate Mary and the saints - adoration is reserved for God alone.

Then you understanding in likened to an Ostrich with it's head in the sand. I was raised under Roman Catholic teaching and they very much pray, seek after and DEPEND on her.
Tell some of them that Mary image was seen in a tamale or her image burned in a door ect ect. and see how many flock to see it. Satan the father of lies love to pervert the simple devotion to the Lord Jesus.

 

[annsni]

First you say that “…prayer is to one and only: the Trinity”


And when someone shows you directly from scripture that your position is biblically wrong (the prayer to the angles in Psalms 103) you suddenly imply that it is now OK to pray to angels?

Well, angles are not omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent either. So, how can they hear us? It is through the power of Jesus Christ. If Jesus can allow them to hear our prayers then he can allow the glorious saints in heaven to do so as well.

Peace!

I have never said to pray to angels - and I never would. Angels are not to be prayed to and they do not hear our prayers unless they are present with us and we pray out loud. Where do we see that the angels hear our prayers?