Mary Queen of Heaven? What?

[Grace&Truth]

You mean like the POPE! :laugh:

Exactly, as well as those who even during the writing of Scriptures and thereafter that had already started teaching contrary false doctrine to The Inspiried Word of God. Which Paul warned us about. :thumbs:

 

[lori4dogs]

We've seen in the past that a profile doesn't always tell the truth.

I'm also friend with Catholics but do not agree with their theology and I will not defend them. Bullied is not what is happening - truth is what's happening here. I do not bully Catholics but I also will not allow them to hide their true beliefs.[/QUOTE

Your 'perception' of truth, thats all. Your perception of what we believe. I know what I believe and if I were to 'hide my true beliefs' then I would be part of this Great Roman Catholic Conspiracy that most of you believe exists. This board has a long history of bullying, mocking, name-calling and general anti-Catholic nastiness and bigotry. I have been called a heretic, a liar, apostate, Baptist hater, idoloter, etc. You usually are respectful and I appreciate that.

I stay around here because despite so much un-Christian behavior (which speaks volumes as to peoples 'true beliefs'), I still learn a lot here. Unfortuanately, too often the lesson is 'how not to treat another child of God'.

 

[DHK]

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Well DHK, by that logic the sole authority regarding faith and morals for Christians comes only from the Old Testament (Specifically Isaiah 8) as the New Testament was not even around. Care to try again?

I only gave you one verse. It was from the OT. The principle it teaches is still applicable. However, consider:

Jesus said:
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
--The Scriptures are our sole authority, thus the command to search them; not the books that are written about Christ.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
--They searched the Scriptures instead of taking Paul's message at face value. The used the OT to validate a NT message. Paul calls them noble for doing so.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
--All Scripture is inspired. No Catholic Catechism, Book of Mormon, Oral Tradition, Writings from the ECF or any other sacred writing is inspired. The Scriptures only are inspired. They only are our sole authority. God inspired them.

2 Peter 1:20-21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
--Those holy men of God were the prophets of the OT and the Apostles of the NT. They spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. What was written were the very words of God. We have the Scriptures today. They are our sole authority.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
--It is the Scriptures that we are commanded to study; not any other book. Why? Because it is the Scriptures that are our only authority.

 

[lori4dogs]

I only gave you one verse. It was from the OT. The principle it teaches is still applicable. However, consider:

Jesus said:
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
--The Scriptures are our sole authority, thus the command to search them; not the books that are written about Christ.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
--They searched the Scriptures instead of taking Paul's message at face value. The used the OT to validate a NT message. Paul calls them noble for doing so.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
--All Scripture is inspired. No Catholic Catechism, Book of Mormon, Oral Tradition, Writings from the ECF or any other sacred writing is inspired. The Scriptures only are inspired. They only are our sole authority. God inspired them.

2 Peter 1:20-21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
--Those holy men of God were the prophets of the OT and the Apostles of the NT. They spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. What was written were the very words of God. We have the Scriptures today. They are our sole authority.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
--It is the Scriptures that we are commanded to study; not any other book. Why? Because it is the Scriptures that are our only authority.

Jesus said to Saint Peter, “Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build My Church” Matthew 16:18

Saint Paul clearly taught that the Church is the pillar and bulwark (“bulwark” means a protective wall or embankment.) of the truth. 1 Tim. 3:16

Jesus commissioned Peter to preach in His name, “As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” John. 20:21 This means that Jesus gave Peter the authority to preach in His name.

Then Jesus said, “Whoever listens to you listens to Me, and whoever rejects you rejects Me, and whoever rejects Me rejects the One Who sent Me.” Luke. 10:16 “If the offender refuses to listen even to the Church, let such a one be to you as a Gentile (“gentile” in the sense of non-believer”) and a tax collector.” Matthw 18:17

The Catholic Church and the Faith was in place before the existence of the New Testament, the second part of the Bible. Of the 12 Apostles, only 5 wrote something. Seven to ten years before anything was written down, the Catholic Church was already administering the Sacraments, baptizing, praying over the sick, etc.

Before one single word of the New Testament was written, the Catholic Church had already spread throughout the Roman Empire. The Catholic Church had Saints and Martyrs before it had Gospels and Epistles.

 

[MrJim]

Mary is my Queen of Heaven~~

Lk 1:28 KJV
And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

...look forward to seeing her someday..whether it's "official" or not she is someone very special.

 

[annsni]

Jesus said to Saint Peter, “Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build My Church” Matthew 16:18

Saint Paul clearly taught that the Church is the pillar and bulwark (“bulwark” means a protective wall or embankment.) of the truth. 1 Tim. 3:16

Ahh - I see you copying and pasting with no credit included. Wow - my daughter would be expelled from college with your "expertise". BTW - You might want to check your sources before you cite them. Where in 1 Timothy 3:16 does it say that the church is the pillar and bulwark of truth?

Jesus commissioned Peter to preach in His name, “As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” John. 20:21 This means that Jesus gave Peter the authority to preach in His name.

Ahhh - once again a wrong comment. Here is the whole passage from John 20. Where does it say that Jesus commissioned Peter to preach?

19Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

20And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.

21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Then Jesus said, “Whoever listens to you listens to Me, and whoever rejects you rejects Me, and whoever rejects Me rejects the One Who sent Me.” Luke. 10:16 “If the offender refuses to listen even to the Church, let such a one be to you as a Gentile (“gentile” in the sense of non-believer”) and a tax collector.” Matthw 18:17

Have you read these passages in context? Oh right - you're just copying and pasting from another website instead of doing your own study.

Let's look at the Luke 10 passage. Is this speaking of the church? Verse 1 will answer that:

After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

Nope - Jesus was speaking to a specific 70 people. Not the church.

How about Matthew 18?

15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

We see this speaking of church discipline (you can read more in 1 Corinthians 5 on this subject).

The Catholic Church and the Faith was in place before the existence of the New Testament, the second part of the Bible. Of the 12 Apostles, only 5 wrote something. Seven to ten years before anything was written down, the Catholic Church was already administering the Sacraments, baptizing, praying over the sick, etc.

Before one single word of the New Testament was written, the Catholic Church had already spread throughout the Roman Empire. The Catholic Church had Saints and Martyrs before it had Gospels and Epistles.

This is just false teaching of the Catholic church. I'm sorry you have been taught this error.

 

[lori4dogs]

Well, now your just being rude. I don't copy and paste from websites, however, some of the material I do post is from files that has been compiled in part from websites and if proper credit has been overlooked it is an oversight.

Your last comment is just a general brush off of the facts. Show how this is a 'false teaching.'

 

[lori4dogs]

Mary is my Queen of Heaven~~

Lk 1:28 KJV
And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

...look forward to seeing her someday..whether it's "official" or not she is someone very special.

Careful, you risk the wrath of the Inquisitors.

 

[annsni]

Well, now your just being rude. I don't copy and paste from websites, however, some of the material I do post is from files that has been compiled in part from websites and if proper credit has been overlooked it is an oversight.

Lori - Your post is an exact duplicate of another website:

Jesus said to Saint Peter, “Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build My Church” Matthew 16:18

Saint Paul clearly taught that the Church is the pillar and bulwark (“bulwark” means a protective wall or embankment.) of the truth. 1 Tim. 3:16

Jesus commissioned Peter to preach in His name, “As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” John. 20:21 This means that Jesus gave Peter the authority to preach in His name.

Then Jesus said, “Whoever listens to you listens to Me, and whoever rejects you rejects Me, and whoever rejects Me rejects the One Who sent Me.” Luke. 10:16 “If the offender refuses to listen even to the Church, let such a one be to you as a Gentile (“gentile” in the sense of non-believer”) and a tax collector.” Matthw 18:17

The Catholic Church and the Faith was in place before the existence of the New Testament, the second part of the Bible. Of the 12 Apostles, only 5 wrote something. Seven to ten years before anything was written down, the Catholic Church was already administering the Sacraments, baptizing, praying over the sick, etc.

Before one single word of the New Testament was written, the Catholic Church had already spread throughout the Roman Empire. The Catholic Church had Saints and Martyrs before it had Gospels and Epistles.

1. Jesus said to Saint Peter, “Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build My Church.” [Mt. 16:18]

2. Saint Paul clearly taught that the Church is the pillar and bulwark (“bulwark” means a protective wall or embankment.) of the truth. [1 Tim. 3:16]

3. Jesus commissioned Peter to preach in His name, “As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” [Jn. 20:21] This means that Jesus gave Peter the authority to preach in His name.

4. Then Jesus said, “Whoever listens to you listens to Me, and whoever rejects you rejects Me, and whoever rejects Me rejects the One Who sent Me.” [Lk. 10:16] “If the offender refuses to listen even to the Church, let such a one be to you as a Gentile (“gentile” in the sense of non-believer”) and a tax collector.” [Mt. 18:17]

The Catholic Church and the Faith was in place before the existence of the New Testament, the second part of the Holy Bible. Of the 12 Apostles, only 5 wrote something. Seven to ten years before anything was written down, the Catholic Church was already administering the Sacraments, baptizing, forgiving sins, praying over the sick, etc...

Before one single word of the New Testament was written, the Catholic Church had already spread throughout the Roman Empire. The Catholic Church had Saints and Martyrs before it had Gospels and Epistles.

from http://www.catholicdoors.com/misc/apologetics/solascriptura2.htm

Lori - How can this be?

 

[MrJim]

Careful, you risk the wrath of the Inquisitors.

Eh, I'm always gettin' yelled at by someone over somethin' I say..:applause:

 

[BobRyan]

The Catholic Church and the Faith was in place before the existence of the New Testament, the second part of the Bible. Of the 12 Apostles, only 5 wrote something. Seven to ten years before anything was written down, the Catholic Church was already administering the Sacraments, baptizing, praying over the sick, etc.

Before one single word of the New Testament was written, the Catholic Church had already spread throughout the Roman Empire. The Catholic Church had Saints and Martyrs before it had Gospels and Epistles.

This is just false teaching of the Catholic church. I'm sorry you have been taught this error.

Here is a good opportunity for two posters to talk past each other.

When Lori says "Catholic Church" she really means the "Christian church of the NT".

Obvisouly everyone here agrees that the Christian Church began at Pentecost or just before that - and that as of that time - there were no NT texts written.

When annsni sees the word "Catholic Church" he/she/they may be thinking "The actual words Catholic church recorded historically as an organization" where priests have the magic powers to confect God - to mark the soul, to absolve from sin, and the RCC has something like purgatory, and even "Mary sinless like God" and "Mary mother of God" or even "Mary assumed into heaven".

Obviously there is no indication that any of the above existed before scripture had been written in the NT.

So while I am the first to enjoy a good debate - I prefer to have both sides talking about the same thing when saying "it is so" or "it is not so".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[annsni]

Here is a good opportunity for two posters to talk past each other.

When Lori says "Catholic Church" she really means the "Christian church of the NT".

Obvisouly everyone here agrees that the Christian Church began at Pentecost or just before that - and that as of that time - there were no NT texts written.

When annsni sees the word "Catholic Church" he/she/they may be thinking "The actual words Catholic church recorded historically as an organization" where priests have the magic powers to confect God - to mark the soul, to absolve from sin, and the RCC has something like purgatory, and even "Mary sinless like God" and "Mary mother of God" or even "Mary assumed into heaven".

Obviously there is no indication that any of the above existed before scripture had been written in the NT.

So while I am the first to enjoy a good debate - I prefer to have both sides talking about the same thing when saying "it is so" or "it is not so".

in Christ,

Bob

Actually, this is incorrect. I will give you the rest of the information from the page that Lori was copying and pasting from:

Saint Matthew wrote his Gospel about 7 years after Jesus was taken up to Heaven. Saint Mark was 10 years later; Saint Luke was 25 years after the Ascension of the Lord. The Gospel of John was written about 63 years after the Ascension.

I ask you, “How did the early believers become Christians?” “How did they save their souls?” It certainly was not by reading the Bible because there was no New Testament. It was not until 397 A.D., under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, at the Council of Carthage, that the Catholic Church finally agreed on which writings should be part of the New Testament.

The strange thing about Sola Scriptura, those who claim that every word in the Holy Bible is the infallible word of God, they fail to affirm that God commissioned the Catholic Church, no other Church, to compile the Holy Bible. It was the Catholic Church that produced the Bible. It was not the Bible that produced the Church.

Now if faith is only obtained by reading the Holy Bible (Sola Scriptura) in order to be saved, than salvation comes from the invention of the printing press. Before the middle of the 1400's, the Holy Bible was hand-written. Very few persons owned a copy of it. Every Christian family did not own a Holy Bible. Nor could many parishes afford to buy one.

It was only during the last 500 years that those who were rich and who can afford to buy a printed Bible, this permitted them to read it and decide for themselves what was the truth. This excluded the believers in poor countries who were unable to afford a Bible. This also excluded all the languages in which the Holy Bible was never translated. Before the 1950's, very few Nations had Bibles translated in all the languages spoken in their nation.

So you see my brothers and sisters in Christ, if we are to believe that we only need the Holy Bible in order to be saved, then most of the members of the Church during the past 1,500 years could not have been saved, only those who owned a Bible. We know that this is not true, that an endless number of believers, saints and martyrs, were saved throughout the centuries because of their unity to the Catholic Church as commanded by Jesus.

from http://www.catholicdoors.com/misc/apologetics/solascriptura2.htm


Lori absolutely means the Roman Catholic church as we know it and not the church of the body of Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

Mary is my Queen of Heaven~~

Lk 1:28 KJV
And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

...look forward to seeing her someday..whether it's "official" or not she is someone very special.

If you look in the Bible for a reference to this queen of heaven thing - guess what you find the people of God doing?

Jeremiah 7:18
The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger.

Jeremiah 44:17
We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our fathers, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm.

 

[annsni]

If you look in the Bible for a reference to this queen of heaven thing - guess what you find the people of God doing?

I hope you're not saying that it was a good thing that these people were doing, are you??

 

[lori4dogs]

Lori - Your post is an exact duplicate of another website:






from http://www.catholicdoors.com/misc/apologetics/solascriptura2.htm

Lori - How can this be?

If the material was taken by me or sent to me by someone else I can't say. Not everything in my files has the source or credit attached. The files were not created for use on this board it was for my own general info. Get over it.

 

[annsni]

If the material was taken by me or sent to me by someone else I can't say. Not everything in my files has the source or credit attached. The files were not created for use on this board it was for my own general info. Get over it.

Well, posting something that is not your words AS your words is called plagerism. It is taking credit for someone else's work. I don't get over that.

 

[lori4dogs]

Well, posting something that is not your words AS your words is called plagerism. It is taking credit for someone else's work. I don't get over that.

That has never been my intention. I will make every effort to either list a source for all material other than my own or not post it at all. As I said, the files I have include both my own material and material others have sent to me. It is not always easy to know which is which. I thought this was information from a handout in class because no source was listed with it or that it had been emailed to me. I don't know. Obviously I was wrong.
I will be more careful. I hope that is good enough for you.

 

[annsni]

It took me all of 5 seconds to google it. I copied two sentences, put it in my google window and there it was - the first link. Maybe do that to be sure you cite your references properly (and notate it in your notes).

 

[lori4dogs]

Actually, this is incorrect. I will give you the rest of the information from the page that Lori was copying and pasting from:



from http://www.catholicdoors.com/misc/apologetics/solascriptura2.htm


Lori absolutely means the Roman Catholic church as we know it and not the church of the body of Christ.

I am not copy and pasting anything from a website. It obviously comes from a the website you linked to but the material was in my file on 'sola scriptura' without the website or in quotations. You can continue to call me a plagiarizer or liar if you want.

 

[lori4dogs]

It took me all of 5 seconds to google it. I copied two sentences, put it in my google window and there it was - the first link. Maybe do that to be sure you cite your references properly (and notate it in your notes).

I will do that.