Mary Queen of Heaven? What?

[BillySunday1935]

I hope you enjoy your retreat, but unless it offers Jesus and salvation by grace and grace alone it is not evangelistic.

Well, I've shown that to be patently false before.

Salvation is Jesus plus nothing... not Jesus plus sacraments, not Jesus plus baptism/sprinkling/whatever, not Jesus plus praying to saints. If it is not Jesus alone it is not salvation.

Of course it's Jesus who by his life, death, and resurrection made atonement for our sins. However, God set up Baptism as a vehicle to his grace. Again - I've shown you this before directly from scripture.

Mary is the mother (small "m") of Jesus. God has no mother. While Jesus is a part of the triune Godhead, Mary is nothing more than a woman who bore the Son of God. She is not the "Mother of God" in that she is elevated in any respect other than being willing.

No one (in their right mind at least) could believe that Mary existed eternally with the Trinity. However, the term "Mother of God" is appropriate none-the-less.

1.) Mary was a creature created by God.
2.) Mary was blessed above all other women
3.) Mary was the mother of Jesus
4.) Jesus was both fully God and fully man
5.) Thus, Mary IS the mother of God

Is it a mystery? Yes... Can we wrap our feeble human minds around it? No... no more than we can we truly understand the Trinity.

I'm curious - do you deny point #4 above?

Venerating her is to worship someone other than God.

Praying is not necessarily synonymous with worship. It's all about ones intent.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pray

When you learn the difference, then we can talk. (Just kidding - I couldn't resist)

snip... just as praying to dead "saints" is doing the same thing.

Those in Heaven are not dead, but fully alive – more so than anyone on Earth.
Mark 12:27 "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

God bless you!

 

[Trotter]

Well, I've shown that to be patently false before.

Hogwash. You haven't shown anything but your spin to try to back up your heresy.

Of course it's Jesus who by his life, death, and resurrection made atonement for our sins. However, God set up Baptism as a vehicle to his grace. Again - I've shown you this before directly from scripture.

Again, hogwash. You have spouted out proof texts and showed your true colors.

No one (in their right mind at least) could believe that Mary existed eternally with the Trinity. However, the term "Mother of God" is appropriate none-the-less.

1.) Mary was a creature created by God.
2.) Mary was blessed above all other women
3.) Mary was the mother of Jesus
4.) Jesus was both fully God and fully man
5.) Thus, Mary IS the mother of God

Is it a mystery? Yes... Can we wrap our feeble human minds around it? No... no more than we can we truly understand the Trinity.

I'm curious - do you deny point #4 above?

Nope, I fully agree with #4, but nice try though. Mary is the physical mother of Jesus, but she is not the mother of the Godhead... buy Catholics and such try to make her sound like she popped God Sr. right on out of there, too. Mary was the vessel and that's is. I would never use the term "mother of God" for her, Why not call Joseph the "father of God"? Sure, he wasn't the other half of Jesus genetics, but he did raise him and was the father to him. Joseph was righteous enough to not cast Mary out or have her stoned... why not venerate and pray to him, too?

Yes, that is tongue in cheek, but it makes about as much sense as all the crapola about Mary that the RCC has piled up. Mary was not sinless, she was not perfect, she is not divine. She needed the same Savior as everyone else. being the physical mother of Jesus did not earn her any special points.

Praying is not necessarily synonymous with worship. It's all about ones intent.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pray

When you learn the difference, then we can talk. (Just kidding - I couldn't resist)

I caught the joke.

Praying to anyone/anything other than God the Father, God the Son, and/or God the Holy Spirit is worshiping something other than God Himself. I have heard all the Catholic baloney about asking so-and-so to intercede and such, but Jesus is out Intercessor and Him alone. All the "saints" of Catholicism are dead... and if there were true Catholics according to RCC teachings they died lost and are in hell anyway.

Those in Heaven are not dead, but fully alive – more so than anyone on Earth.
Mark 12:27 "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

Like I just said, if the "saints" the Catholics pray to were true catholics and adhered to the RCC teachings they died lost and are in hell right now. And your proof text has nothing to do with heaven.

God bless you!

You, too.

 

[BillySunday1935]

Hogwash. You haven't shown anything but your spin to try to back up your heresy.

By what authority do you infallibly declare me a heretic? I’m so glad that you could step up and help God out – I mean, as he’s so busy right now.

Again, hogwash. You have spouted out proof texts and showed your true colors.

I provided you scripture to back up my position and you responded with opinion and hate filled rhetoric – just as you are doing in the above.

Nope, I fully agree with #4, but nice try though. Mary is the physical mother of Jesus, but she is not the mother of the Godhead... bu[t]y Catholics and such try to make her sound like she popped God Sr. right on out of there, too.

Well, by that statement I can see that you do not hold that Jesus was both fully God and fully man. Additionally, you show little reverence for the Holy name of God in those statements.

Mary was the vessel and that's is[t]. I would never use the term "mother of God" for her, Why not call Joseph the "father of God"? Sure, he wasn't the other half of Jesus genetics, but he did raise him and was the father to him. Joseph was righteous enough to not cast Mary out or have her stoned... why not venerate and pray to him, too?

If I’m not mistaken, Catholics do venerate and pray to St. Joseph.

Mary was not sinless:

Well, Catholics certainly believe that she was.

She was not perfect:

How do you know - were you there?

She is not divine.

Try to pay attention here – be a cut above – NO ONE IS SAYING THAT MARY IS DIVINE.

She needed the same Savior as everyone else. being the physical mother of Jesus did not earn her any special points.

I think that’s what Catholics mean by the concept of the “Immaculate Conception”.

Praying to anyone/anything other than God the Father, God the Son, and/or God the Holy Spirit is worshiping something other than God Himself. I have heard all the Catholic baloney about asking so-and-so to intercede and such, but Jesus is out Intercessor and Him alone.

Oh Lordy. Didn’t you say you were a Baptist minister? Jesus is our sole MEDIATOR – no one goes to the Father but by him. Again – you fail to understand the difference between the words “Intercessor” and “Mediator”. Let me help you:

Intercession: Asking someone to pray to God on your behalf is intercessory prayer. If someone came to you and asked that you pray for their mother who had just been diagnosed with cancer would you say – No way. You go directly to Jesus as he is our only Intercessor?

Mediator: A go between who represents two parties at variance. In this case, between man and God the Father.

You seem to have a serious theological dilemma here.

Like I just said, if the "saints" the Catholics pray to were true catholics and adhered to the RCC teachings they died lost and are in hell right now. And your proof text has nothing to do with heaven.

It is the height of presumptive arrogance to claim to know who is in hell. Perhaps we should now address you as omnipotent Trotter. Good luck with that attitude.

 

[annsni]

Just curious annsni - how can you "guarantee" this?

Because I grew up in the Catholic church and know it's teachings?

 

[billwald]

>Originally Posted by Trotter
>I hope you enjoy your retreat, but unless it offers Jesus and salvation by >grace and grace alone it is not evangelistic.

From http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evangelistic

Main Entry: evan·ge·lism
Pronunciation: \i-ˈvan-jə-ˌli-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: circa 1626
1 : the winning or revival of personal commitments to Christ
2 : militant or crusading zeal
— evan·ge·lis·tic \-ˌvan-jə-ˈlis-tik\ adjective
— evan·ge·lis·ti·cal·ly \-ti-k(ə-)lē\ adverb

Interesting how NEW the word is.

>I think that’s what Catholics mean by the concept of the “Immaculate Conception”.

This is what Catholics mean:

FROM http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

Immaculate Conception

The doctrine

In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."

"The Blessed Virgin Mary..."

The subject of this immunity from original sin is the person of Mary at the moment of the creation of her soul and its infusion into her body.

"...in the first instance of her conception..."

The term conception does not mean the active or generative conception by her parents. Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents. Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body. Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul.

 

[BillySunday1935]

Because I grew up in the Catholic church and know it's teachings?

"...the retreat does not revolve around being saved by grace alone but instead around the Church's role in salvation."

Most Catholics that I know will tell you that salvation is impossible without the Grace given by God. However, the church has a role to play as well. If not, Jesus would not have established it in the first place.

 

[BillySunday1935]

>Originally Posted by Trotter
>I hope you enjoy your retreat, but unless it offers Jesus and salvation by >grace and grace alone it is not evangelistic.

From http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evangelistic

Main Entry: evan·ge·lism
Pronunciation: \i-ˈvan-jə-ˌli-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: circa 1626
1 : the winning or revival of personal commitments to Christ
2 : militant or crusading zeal
— evan·ge·lis·tic \-ˌvan-jə-ˈlis-tik\ adjective
— evan·ge·lis·ti·cal·ly \-ti-k(ə-)lē\ adverb

Interesting how NEW the word is.

>I think that’s what Catholics mean by the concept of the “Immaculate Conception”.

This is what Catholics mean:

FROM http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

Immaculate Conception

The doctrine

In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."

"The Blessed Virgin Mary..."

The subject of this immunity from original sin is the person of Mary at the moment of the creation of her soul and its infusion into her body.

"...in the first instance of her conception..."

The term conception does not mean the active or generative conception by her parents. Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents. Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body. Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul.

Thanks for the info Bill - I got most of what I know on this topic from the movie "Song of Bernadette."

 

[annsni]

Most Catholics that I know will tell you that salvation is impossible without the Grace given by God. However, the church has a role to play as well. If not, Jesus would not have established it in the first place.

Too bad He forgot to tell us that we are saved by the blood of the Lamb ... and the church.

 

[sag38]

The Bible teaches that we are saved by grace through faith. No where in the Bible will you find the church being involved in the process of one becoming right with God.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Is it a mystery? Yes... Can we wrap our feeble human minds around it? No... no more than we can we truly understand the Trinity.

It's a mystery to those who cannot accept the clear teaching of scripture. It's cultic to lift up others for adoration other than Jesus! Cults always lift up some other figure in the place of Jesus. Honoring people is way diffrent than the perversion of Idolitry that is being seen and explained away.

 

[BillySunday1935]

The Bible teaches that we are saved by grace through faith. No where in the Bible will you find the church being involved in the process of one becoming right with God.

Well, who says that the Bible is the only place that we can look?

 

[BillySunday1935]

Too bad He forgot to tell us that we are saved by the blood of the Lamb ... and the church.

Well, he did tell us that - and most of the Catholics that I know concur.

 

[BillySunday1935]

It's a mystery to those who cannot accept the clear teaching of scripture. It's cultic to lift up others for adoration other than Jesus! Cults always lift up some other figure in the place of Jesus. Honoring people is way diffrent than the perversion of Idolitry that is being seen and explained away.

Amen! The catholics that I know would never do that.:thumbs:

 

[Trotter]

It's a mystery to those who cannot accept the clear teaching of scripture. It's cultic to lift up others for adoration other than Jesus! Cults always lift up some other figure in the place of Jesus. Honoring people is way diffrent than the perversion of Idolitry that is being seen and explained away.

Amen! Adoration for Mary and for "saints" are exactly that- idolatry. BS seems to miss that part.

I have no problem with who Jesus is, Billy. I have a problem with people trying to make Mary out to be something she is not. There has only been human on this earth that was sinless, perfect and divine (or any combination thereof) and that was Jesus Himself. Mary was just a woman born into sin like all the rest of us. She was conceived and born the same as all but Christ, and received the nature of Adam. she needed to accept the finished work of Jesus Christ that was given by the grace of God the same way I had to accept it. The RCC says Mary is co-redemtrix with Christ, thereby declaring Mary as divine. They also believe she was sinless and perfect and many believe she was immaculately conceived as well.

I am also well aware of the difference between intercessor and mediator. Jesus is both mediator and intercessor for us. A dead "saint" can't intercede for anyone. Even if some of them were saved and are now in heaven, praying to them would still be idolatry because prayer should only be to the Godhead.

If you want to try to pick at words then go ahead. You would be better served by discovering that salvation is the work of God, not in conjunction with any works by man. If it is man's work (of whatever kind) that brings about salvation then Christ died for nothing as He would be shown to not be enough to fulfill God's requirements. If God can't save man through His own will and power then He is not God as He would then be less than omnipotent.

 

[Trotter]

Well, who says that the Bible is the only place that we can look?

So you are willing to go outside of God's word for salvation? Sorry, mate, but the canon has been closed for quite a while. Mormons and Catholics have ongoing revelation but we're talking about Christianity and true salvation.

 

[lori4dogs]

It's a mystery to those who cannot accept the clear teaching of scripture. It's cultic to lift up others for adoration other than Jesus! Cults always lift up some other figure in the place of Jesus. Honoring people is way diffrent than the perversion of Idolitry that is being seen and explained away.

Many Catholics have posted on this board over the years and not one of them ever advocated adoration of anything other than God Almighty.

 

[lori4dogs]

Trotter said:" . . . . praying to them would still be idolatry because prayer should only be to the Godhead."

What chapter and verse says this?

You are equivicating prayer with worship. The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Look at Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

"Those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth."

 

[lori4dogs]

Trotter said: "Amen! Adoration for Mary and for "saints" are exactly that- idolatry. BS seems to miss that part."

The Catholic Church teaches that adoration of anything other than God is forbidden.

Now back to the Retreat and winning souls for Jesus! But before I go, here is an excerpt from Taylor Marshall 'should we call Mary Co-redemtrix?'

"We now turn the doctrine that Mary is Coredemptrix. This doctrine is greatly misunderstood and often leads to ecumenical fisticuffs. However, if properly defined, we find that it is both true and beautiful.

Let me begin with two verses from Saint Paul in order to defuse the ire of fierce objectors:

"in order to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus I might save some of them [καὶ σώσω τινὰς ἐξ αὐτῶν]" (Rom 11:14).

"To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some [ἵνα πάντως τινὰς σώσω]" (1 Cor 9:22).

In both passages, Saint Paul uses σώσω, meaning "I save." Now did Paul die on the cross and rise again for the justification of sinners? Of course not. Neither did the Blessed Virgin Mary make absolute propitiation for humanity. Christ can say σώσω or "I save" in the absolute sense. Paul and others can say σώσω or "I save" only in a relative sense.

[Incidentally, the distinction between "absolute" and "relative" is essential to the Catholic doctrine of prayer and mediation. Christ is the absolute mediator between God and mankind since His both fully divine and fully human. However, all baptized Christians are relative intercessors in that we can pray for one another by participating the mediation of Christ. His mediation is absolute. Our mediation and that of the saints is relative to His.]

This distinction between redemption absolutely (Christ alone) and redemption relatively (all those who participate in the proclamation of the Gospel) is key to understanding the Blessed Mother's title as Co-redemptrix. The prefix "co-" here denotes relative causality. This is why Saint Paul says, "We are God’s co-workers" (1 Cor. 3:9). Paul's labor in the work of salvation is relative (not absolute), and hence he is a "co-worker with God." Yet Mary's role in the incarnation and her presence at the crucifixion reveals that she is principally involved in this "relative causality of salvation" as understood by Saint Paul. Mary is a "co-worker with God" in a preeminent way. God is the Father of Christ. She is His mother.

 

[BillySunday1935]

So you are willing to go outside of God's word for salvation? Sorry, mate, but the canon has been closed for quite a while. Mormons and Catholics have ongoing revelation but we're talking about Christianity and true salvation.

Well, scripture does not say that it is the sole authority for Christians regarding faith and morals. I would point you to the historical writings of the early church to see how they worshipped. So how do you address this?

 

[DHK]

Well, scripture does not say that it is the sole authority for Christians regarding faith and morals. I would point you to the historical writings of the early church to see how they worshipped. So how do you address this?

Scripture from the OT to the NT has always claimed to be the only authority that we have in faith and practice:

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.