Mary the mother of God?

[JohnB]

Bunyon,
Sorry if I stepped on your toe. I guess I misread your comment.
You are right, the immaculate conception (of Mary) does make her womb sinless. And perpetual virginity maintained her womb's sinlessness.

 

[Bunyon]

"Just an fyi that the immaculate conception is the doctrine that Mary was concieved without Original Sin."------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think they still conseder her to have been without sin up until the point of giving birth to Jesus? But this, of course, makes an even stronger case that catholics uduley elevate Mary and have done so with the title Mother of God. If their general modus Oprani is to Elevate her then this Title should not be viewed as existing in a vacuum.

 

[Gold Dragon]

I have no problem admitting that Catholics unduly elevate Mary and the immaculate conception is one example and the title Queen of Heaven is another.

The title Theotokos is not. That title is about affirming the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[JohnB]

Gold Dragon said: "Catholics acknowledge that she sinned in her lifetime. "

Actually, they do not. This is from a Catholic apologetics magazine:

"The Church teaches that Mary was conceived without sin, and that she remained a virgin her entire life, that she remained sinless throughout her entire life, and that she rose, body and soul, into heaven."
http://www.envoymagazine.com/planetenvoy/072104-OurBlessedMother-Ludwig-Full.htm

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by natters:
Arti, first, nobody is saying Mary predated the second person of the Trinity. Second, Jesus body was not just a "physical vessel". Jesus was not just God "inside" a man's body.

It is just that people seem to be playing word games with the most sacred concept there is. Just because someone can make a case for stretching the meanings of words so that you can say two things at once and then let people mean whichever one they want in order to have a faux agreement is absurd. Mary is the woman in the Bible which I admire the most. God praised her and blessed her with the greatest of gifts and bestowed on her a most holy purpose. Mary gave birth to Jesus, to His physical humanity but she did not give "birth" to ANY of His divinity. His divinity wasn't born. Therefore, it is a complete misnomer to say that she is the mother of God.

 

[Bunyon]

"The title Theotokos is not. That title is about affirming the doctrine of the Trinity."----------------------------------------------------------

You are obviously more educated about the etiology of the Title than I am, but I really don't see the utility of a discussion that does not take into account what the tarditional catholic church is saying whent they utilize this title. They pretty much own the Title, don't they? Does any other church use it?

 

[Eliyahu]

Is James the brother of Jesus, Brother of God?
What about David, the Great Grand Father of God?
Mary's sister should be called ""Aunt of God"
Jesus was not ashamed of calling me brother (Heb 2:11) Therefore am I Brother of God?
Mary was a creature, while Jesus is the Creator. If the Creator comes out of a ceramic bowl, shall we have to call the bowl as the mother of the Creator? Catholic even makes the statue of her and bow down in front of it.
Please note nobody in the Bible called Mary, the Mother of God. Son of God was in the bosom of God. Mother has the meaning of "giving birth to"(making existence) and pre-existence. Mary neither exist before Son of God, nor gave birth to Son of God who was in the bosom of God. God used her when God sent His only begotten(already begotten) Son into this world. Therefore she obeyed and said "my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour" Lk 1:47 because she need a Savior.
She and Jesus had a big diffence in mentioning the father of Jesus. She mentioned Jesus father was looking for him, while Jesus was occupied with His Father's business. I believe such gap reveals the sinful nature of human being as Isaiah 59:2 mentioned. She came to Jesus to tell something, instead of listening to Him, with his brethren who didn't believe in him.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by JohnB:
Gold Dragon said: "Catholics acknowledge that she sinned in her lifetime. "

Actually, they do not. This is from a Catholic apologetics magazine:

"The Church teaches that Mary was conceived without sin, and that she remained a virgin her entire life, that she remained sinless throughout her entire life, and that she rose, body and soul, into heaven."
http://www.envoymagazine.com/planetenvoy/072104-OurBlessedMother-Ludwig-Full.htm

You may be correct. Briefly looking into the entries at New Advent and the relevant passages in the Catechism, that does seem to be the prevaling view. I apologize for my mistatement.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
You are obviously more educated about the etiology of the Title than I am, but I really don't see the utility of a discussion that does not take into account what the tarditional catholic church is saying whent they utilize this title. They pretty much own the Title, don't they? Does any other church use it?

The Eastern Orthodox Church definitely uses Theotokos since Ephesus is one of the 7 ecumenical councils before the schism that they consider to be authoritative.

I believe Anglicans, Lutherans, Reformed and Presbyterians have no problem referring to Mary with the title Theotokos, but do not emphasize it in their traditions.

 

[mioque]

Bunyon
"I really don't see the utility of a discussion that does not take into account what the tarditional catholic church is saying whent they utilize this title. They pretty much own the Title, don't they? Does any other church use it? "
"
All of the Eastern-Orthodox churches do as well.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by JohnB:
Sounds like we have a number of proto-Roman Catholic Baptists here

I am not "proto-Roman Catholic" and disagree with their view of Mary. But the fact remains that this title came into being to emphasize the divinity of Jesus, as I said before, and also that Jesus was not 2 persons but one person, fully man and fully God. I do not go around calling Mary the "mother of God" but I do understand the historical origin of this title. When this title came about, it was understood to mean that Mary was the mother of Jesus, God the Son.

You are confusing the original meaning of the statement with how it is misused by some today.

 

[Marcia]

As a title for the Virgin Mary, Theotokos was recognized by the Orthodox Church at Third Ecumenical Council held at Ephesus in 431. It had already been in use for some time in the devotional and liturgical life of the Church. The theological significance of the title is to emphasize that Mary's son, Jesus, is fully God, as well as fully human, and that Jesus' two natures (divine and human) were united in a single Person of the Trinity. The competing view at that council was that Mary should be called Christotokos instead, meaning "Birth-giver to Christ." This was the view advocated by Nestorius, then Patriarch of Constantinople. The intent behind calling her Christotokos was to restrict her role to be only the mother of "Christ's humanity" and not his Divine nature.

Nestorius' view was anathematized by the Council as heresy, (see Nestorianism), since it was considered to be dividing Jesus into two distinct persons, one who was Son of Mary, and another, the divine nature, who was not. It was defined that although Jesus has two natures, human and divine, these are eternally united in one personhood. Because Mary is the mother of God the Son, she is therefore duly entitled Theotokos.

Calling Mary the Theotokos or the Mother of God (Μητηρ Θεου) was never meant to suggest that Mary was coeternal with God, or that she existed before Jesus Christ or God existed.
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Theotokos

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Is James the brother of Jesus, Brother of God?

James was the brother of Jesus, God the Son.
David was the great-grandfather of Jesus, God the Son.
This was the purpose of the statement that Mary was the mother of God.

If you read what I quoted above, you will see the reason for the statement. Calling Mary the "Christ-bearer" was promoted by the Nestorians, who believed that Jesus was 2 persons.

As far as I know, nobody who has posted believes that Mary is more than human or is sinless or is the Queen of heaven. So quit with the straw man attacks already.

 

[Bunyon]

"All of the Eastern-Orthodox churches do as well."-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is the other half of the catholic chruch. They are the other half of the same Church, if I would have thought of it, I would have included them.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
That is the other half of the catholic chruch. They are the other half of the same Church, if I would have thought of it, I would have included them.

You better not say that to a member of the EOC. They would be highly offended.

An EOC member would be as justified in saying that Baptists are part of the Roman Catholic church since many of our western Christian theologies and practices are very close to the Catholic church from an Eastern Orthodox perspective.

If you want to paint in broad strokes, don't be suprised when you are painted in similarly broad strokes.

 

[Bunyon]

"You better not say that to a member of the EOC. They would be highly offended."------------------------------------------------------------------

Is that so? Why do I hear talk of the Chatholic church wanting to reunite all the time? But you know my point is valid. The were part of the same church and empire in the beginning, and that is why they use the same title. And these two Chatholic entiteis are the only ones who actually use the title.

But you bring up an interesting point. Most of the protestant chruches came out of the Catholic church, and when they did, they rejected this title even as the rejected the Catholic Church who refused to reform. Why?

 

[natters]

Originally posted by Artimaeus:
Mary gave birth to Jesus, to His physical humanity but she did not give "birth" to ANY of His divinity. His divinity wasn't born. Therefore, it is a complete misnomer to say that she is the mother of God.

I respectfully but completely disagree. Mary gave birth to his divinity as well, but that doesn't mean that's when his divinity began. It is not word games, just simple fact, imho.

I don't mean to be offensive, because I don't think anyone truly understands his incarnation fully, but your position is very similar to one of the early heresies that the early church fought against. I forget the official -ism name, I'll have to look it up again.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
Is that so? Why do I hear talk of the Chatholic church wanting to reunite all the time? But you know my point is valid. The were part of the same church and empire in the beginning, and that is why they use the same title. And these two Chatholic entiteis are the only ones who actually use the title.

But you bring up an interesting point. Most of the protestant chruches came out of the Catholic church, and when they did, they rejected this title even as the rejected the Catholic Church who refused to reform. Why?

Luther did not reject the title Mother of God for Mary and is quoted as using it.

 

[Bunyon]

Luther, was an exception on many counts, but he was first gengeration so to speak. You got to get a little further from the tree until you see a solidification of protestant thought, and it solidified for the most part against the use of this title. The 95 points were just a start, as it were.

"Mary gave birth to his divinity as well,"

I think I know what you are trying to say, but at face value, this statement would qualify as heretical.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
"Mary gave birth to his divinity as well,"

I think I know what you are trying to say, but at face value, this statement would qualify as heretical.

I would say that the points he is addressing from Artimeaus are much more heretical and was the actual Nestorian heresy that the Council of Ephesus was trying to combat with the title Theotokos.