Mary the mother of God?

[bapmom]

nate,

there is no reason to honor Mary any more than we do already.

Mary is truly an insignificant part of the story when compared to the God of the Universe coming in the form of a man in order to die for sinners.

She ought not have any more honor than Sarah, Elizabeth (john the Baptists mother), Mary Magdalene, Hannah, Ruth, etc.

I just thought of this, but you realize that the great passage of faith (Hebrews 11) mentions quite a few women, but it leaves out Mary the mother of Jesus.

We don't assume that that means that she had no faith, but I think her omission does point out that there are many other notable women in the Bible and she is not to be exalted above even them.....much less put on a par with Jesus.

 

[nate]

bapmom there is no reason to honor Mary any more than we do already

Luke 1:48 "for he has looked favorably on his humble servant. From now on, all generations will call me blessed," ISV

Hebrews 13:7 "Remember your leaders, those who have spoken God's word to you. Think about the impact of their lives, and imitate their faith." ISV

Luke 1:40-43 "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby jumped in her womb. Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit
Luk 1:42 and exclaimed with a loud cry, "How blessed are you among women, and how blessed is the fruit of your womb!
Luk 1:43 Why should this happen to me, to have the mother of my Lord visit me!" ISV

She ought not have any more honor than Sarah, Elizabeth (john the Baptists mother), Mary Magdalene, Hannah, Ruth, etc.

I strongly disagree! She is as you see above the Mother of our Lord and that was the Holy Spirit speaking through Elizabeth.

just thought of this, but you realize that the great passage of faith (Hebrews 11) mentions quite a few women, but it leaves out Mary the mother of Jesus. Neither is Paul,James,John, nor anyother NT person. This was the OT Hall of Faith.

but I think her omission does point out that there are many other notable women in the Bible and she is not to be exalted above even them.....much less put on a par with Jesus.
No one said she should be on par with Jesus only the Catholic church would exalt her to that level of prestige. They are the only church I know of that believe you approach Christ through Mary. And again Hebrews 11 was written to the Jews and only OT persons of Jewish background are mentioned. And yes she should be honored more in our teaching. God chose her to be the vessel through which the Savior would come.

 

[Bunyon]

I have no porblem with saying Mary was blessed or should be honored. But I'm not in the habit of figureing out how Abraham compares to Peter, or how David compares to John, or how Mary compares to others. But I am not sure how the desire to acknowledge her blessed posistion would justify a Title like Mother of God. We have seen that no good has come from such deivices thus far.

 

[nate]

to have the mother of my Lord visit me!" ISV Here is the Holy Spirit calling Mary the "mother of my Lord." so I don't see where we can't use the term! It is debatable if this term is damaging but I generally do not think it is damaging. It is worth noting that Luther believed Mary to have been sinless also St. Augustine believed her to have been sinless. I do not concur there is no place in Scripture that says Mary was sinless. And I do not believe she was a Virgin for the rest of her life Matthew 12:46 " While Jesus was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him." But that said I do believe Mary may intercede for the Church. But I agree with the Orthodox church not the Catholic church in believing she has no more merit than you or I but that as Mother of our Lord and seeing as Christ is the Head of the Church she would be the mother of the Church. I'm not sure where I stand but think these are very interesting idea's.
In Christ,
Nate

 

[bapmom]

nate,

you need to change your profile to reflect the fact that you are more Catholic than you are Baptist if you believe that Mary CAN intercede for the church.

There is only ONE mediator between us and God, and that is the Christ. Mary does not intercede for us. Neither is she in any way the "mother" of the church. She has absolutely no authoritative role anyplace in scripture, nor did Jesus give her any honor other than as having been a good mom. Once He began His ministry she had no part in it. There is no indication that she even travelled with Him during this time, much less had a hand in establishing the church.

THis sort of skewed doctrine is what you get when you try to take a bunch of churches and meld them into a boiling pot of things that you want to believe in.

I could not care less what "St" Augustine did or did not say....neither do I care what the "Orthodox" view of Mary is. I looked at their site, and it seems more Catholic than Protestant to me anyway.

Remember too, baptists are not part of the protestant movement, we are historically outside of all of that and there is no need for us to go back to their roots in order to get some sort of "doctrinal ancestry" from them.

We look to the Bible in order to figure out how we ought to see these things.

Yes, Elizabeth called Mary the mother of our Lord.....that of course is true. That is also a far cry from saying "Mother of God", as that implies an eternality coming from MARY. The title of Lord is Jesus' position in regards to US, the title of GOD is of course encompassing that, but it also speaks of more than "just" being our Lord. (Remember how Sarah called Abraham lord?) It might very well be semantics, but in this case I find the semantics to be important.

I have a huge problem with the catholic church and that entire system that is leading so many, many people down into damnable heresies. Especially heinous to me is their exaltation of Mary, and I believe we ought to do everything we can to distance ourselves from those sorts of perceptions BECAUSE they contribute to so much deception in our world.

 

[nate]

Originally posted by bapmom:


you need to change your profile to reflect the fact that you are more Catholic than you are Baptist if you believe that Mary CAN intercede for the church.

First this is an Orthodox belief as well, and as I have stated all along including the link I'm "taking" the Orthodox view. I'm not sure what I believe about this issue, at this point I'm playing devil's advocate.


There is only ONE mediator between us and God, and that is the Christ. Mary does not intercede for us. Neither is she in any way the "mother" of the church.
Considering Scripture was written by Luke who was not present God thought it important to add Luke 1:48 which does give her a role in things today. How many times has your pastor called Mary blessed? Which is what God's Word says she will be called.


neither do I care what the "Orthodox" view of Mary is. I looked at their site, and it seems more Catholic than Protestant to me anyway.
That's because you did not read it carefully. On that page it cearly refutes several of Catholiscisms false claims about Mary. And no it straddles the fence between protestant and the RC church.


We look to the Bible in order to figure out how we ought to see these things.
I agree that's why I gave you the verses in my previous post.

Yes, Elizabeth called Mary the mother of our Lord.....that of course is true. That is also a far cry from saying "Mother of God", as that implies an eternality coming from MARY.
I don't understand. No saying Mary "Mother of God" does not imply God's eternality coming from God. It implies correctly that Mary was the mother of Christ's humanity.

I have a huge problem with the catholic church and that entire system that is leading so many, many people down into damnable heresies. Especially heinous to me is their exaltation of Mary,
I completly agree the Catholic church exalts Mary to a position of Worship which is wrong. And is in fact heresy.

 

[nate]

Once and for all lets not Worship Mary. But we should give her a place of honor. This is supported by Luke 1:48. I'm sorry if you disagree but I'm basing my idea on a verse and you are not.
In Christ,
Nate

 

[bapmom]

nate,

please do not try to imply that I am stating an unBiblical viewpoint. I have indeed used Bible passages in my responses to you, and for you to start to try to say that you are using the Bible and Im not is just wrong and misleading.

Again, I really don't know what you are referring to by "orthodox." The site you listed is not baptistic in any way, shape or form, so my only other option is that it is some form of Greek or other European Orthodoxy. "Orthodox" is really not all that separated from Catholic....they are more Catholic than they are not is what I mean.

I am simply trying to point out to you that you are slowly slipping into a trap of exalting Mary more than you ought to. You have already said that you believe Mary can intercede for the church. What verse in the Bible were you using when you said that?

 

[Bunyon]

I think we should Honor Mary, but with unbiblical titles that cause division in the church???? That is what the council of Ephesus was, a scisim. But if we want to rank our Biblical figures like Mary, Jesus said John the Baptist would be first according to Jesus. I just view them a notable humans, no veneration required. I would not venerate any bible human, not Mary and not Peter or any of them.

But lets not get personal or anything. We don't have to win. Alot of good info, historical and otherwise is comming out of this conversation, and I am learning alot. I just bought a book called the history of Christian thought. I disagree with Ransom and Natters, and Gold Dragon, but I have learned some stuff from them and I appreciate it.

 

[natters]

Several different reasons have been put forth as to why people dislike the term "mother of God". How do you all feel about the term "mother of my Lord"?

 

[Bunyon]

Now you are setting us up Natters. I thought you guys did not like that. "if you have a point make it". I see no justification for institutionalizing a title. If an individual wants to use it such as yourself and especially if they reason it out in a way that does not overly venerate Mary, that is ok with me. But there was no need to institutionalize it and crush your enemies with it as Cyrill did. It is simply and unwise thing to do.

 

[bapmom]

natters,

I tried to state my idea of the term "mother of my lord." To me it has a subtle distinction between the term "mother of God."

The term "God" is encompassing all of Him, it includes His deity, His eternality, His exalted status as the beginning and end of everything.....

If I read my Bible correctly, Elizabeth used the term "Lord".....not "LORD", which in the KJV shows a difference between the two words in the original language. All capitals is referring to YHWH, while "Lord" is referring to His title. Sarah called Abraham lord, also.

Of course Jesus is both Lord AND LORD, but when Elizabeth spoke that to Mary she did not use the term for His Godhood. She was referring to Him being Master.

Perhaps this is too much of a case of semantics for you, but to me, in this case, it is a significant enough difference.

 

[Bunyon]

http://www.metamind.net/nestor.html


The more I read the more I find this council and the folks involved in it suspect. Were were the real Christians?

 

[nate]

Originally posted by natters:
Several different reasons have been put forth as to why people dislike the term "mother of God". How do you all feel about the term "mother of my Lord"?

 

[nate]

I tried to state my idea of the term "mother of my lord." To me it has a subtle distinction between the term "mother of God

So your saying Jesus was not God?

 

[Bunyon]

"So your saying Jesus was not God?"-----------------

Like I say if we were in Ephesus we would be drawn and quartered by now. I does not matter how often you say Jesus was God this title will be used as a way to force you to appear to say otherwise, just like Cyrill used it in Ephesus to distroy his eastern enemies.

 

[bapmom]

Originally posted by nate:
I tried to state my idea of the term "mother of my lord." To me it has a subtle distinction between the term "mother of God

So your saying Jesus was not God?

This is a ridiculous accusation, nate.

You know full well that that was not what I was saying. Please do not try to be inflammatory. It is obvious that Im talking about the distinction within the terms being used at various times.
Thats like claiming that since my husband calls me "his wife" that MUST mean he thinks I don't belong to God.

 

[Bunyon]

http://www.turkishodyssey.com/places/aegean/aegean3.htm

The folks at Ephesus were alway female god worshipers. Cyrill choose this city for a showdown with his enemies because there were a group of women who venerated Mary. It was known as a hot bed for this type of Mary veneration. Why? Check out the link, I think is will shed some light.

""Ephesus formed a focal point in the ancient world because of its protected harbor and as a starting point for the Royal Road via Sardis to Susa. It was also a cult center attracting thousands of pilgrims for traditional worship of the female, first Cybele, then Artemis and finally the Virgin Mary. Ephesus was also home for the early philosopher Heraclitus."""

The folks of Ephesus had always worshiped the female deity, no wonder they had a cult for the veneration of Mary, no wonder Cyrill choose this title and place as a forum in which to conquer his Eastern enemies.

[ December 04, 2005, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: Bunyon ]

 

[Bunyon]

BTW, Artemis, who was worshiped in Ephesus before the Christians took was a, you guessed it, virgin Godess of fertility. Now are you getting the picture? Not only was she a virgin but was a perpetual virgin.

 

[nate]

If Jesus is God, which He is, then there is no problem calling Mary the Mother of God.