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Mary's blood ransomed the world!?
- Thread starter Rakka Rage
- Start date
GraceSaves
New Member
Well, I haven't attempted to answer it yet, so don't jump on me too hard.
My response to this would be that, during her life, Mary was the exemplary example of humbleness. You DON'T see her all over the Scriptures, saying, "Look at me, look at me!" Where she does appear, she is there pointing to her Son, saying, "Look at Him, look at Him!"
And by your verse, those who are last, will be first, in Heaven. Therefore, I don't see why it is implausable to see Mary in an especially high place, near her Son, in Heaven.
Hope that makes sense!
God bless,
Grant
T2U,
Before you bow out, would you please do me the same courtesy that I have extended to you and answer a couple of my questions? So far you've only mocked and demeaned my attempts to give you honest answers, then graciously said you will ignore my personal attacks.
My questions:
So, then where do you draw the line at what Jesus said?
Just to whom is he referring?
What was the point of His statement?
Why do you assume Mary is excluded?
Who else would be excluded? Anybody? Nobody?
Before you bow out, would you please do me the same courtesy that I have extended to you and answer a couple of my questions? So far you've only mocked and demeaned my attempts to give you honest answers, then graciously said you will ignore my personal attacks.
My questions:
So, then where do you draw the line at what Jesus said?
Just to whom is he referring?
What was the point of His statement?
Why do you assume Mary is excluded?
Who else would be excluded? Anybody? Nobody?
Catholic Dad,
Sorry it took so long to get back to you. I'm confused though, what happened to the "Shame on you!" part . . .
There it is.
Sorry it took so long to get back to you. I'm confused though, what happened to the "Shame on you!" part . . .
So, are you saying that Jesus is only commending John's prophetic skills? And where did you find this definition of prophet?
Ooops.
A simple "no" would have worked.
No, you are the one who pointed out that Jesus was "born of woman" which we all know. What is your point there? This does not diminish who He is. It is the RCC claim that to call Mary the Mother of God is to exhalt Christ. Yet, you people keep bringing up the fact that Jesus was a man, born of woman. So, is Mary the Mother of God, or the mother of the man Jesus Christ?
How do you figure? I don't remember asking you a question.
Which makes Him much more than a mere man.
Got that strait.
What are you talking about? I have responded to every question I have been asked. Unlike some others . . .
Jesus is talking, so it is my belief that Jesus excluded himself.
I never said Jesus was a mere prophet or a man.
Uh . . . no.
Well, that's not exactly what Carson said. So, as I asked above, are you saying that Jesus is only commending John's prophetic abilities?
Grant,
Thank you so much for your splash of coherency! Bless you!
Thank you so much for your splash of coherency! Bless you!
I'm not going to jump on you.
I completely agree. I, also, think that she would . . . I'm not sure what she would do, but I'm sure the exaltation given her would not be welcomed by her.
Well, the verse says that he who is least in heaven was greater than John the Baptist. At the time Jesus spoke, Mary was still on earth.
It makes sense, Grant. I do realize there are varying degrees of Marian devotion, some are extreme. And it is human nature to want to exalt or esteem the Mother of our Savior. But, if we look to Christ's own example, the exaltation and devotion given to her by some is not there.
GraceSaves
New Member
To honor Mary is to honor:
1) God's creation, for she is creature
2) Honor's God's grace, because she is certainly full of it
I could go on. I promise, my Marian devotion tends to get stronger and stronger over time, but never do I see Mary that I do not see Jesus. Seeing Mary makes me see Jesus stronger. I understand if you don't understand, but I say that with honesty and sincerity. In my honor of Mary, I honor my God and Savior. It never detracts from my love of God, because God is love. Therefore, to love Mary is to love God.
So, in other words, everyone who is in heaven is greater than John the Baptist?
And yet we know that, since Christ obeyed the law perfectly, he honored His father and His mother. While his step-father is Joseph, and I'm sure Joseph received Jesus' honor, His true Father is God the Father. And His mother is Mary. But I'm sure Jesus also didn't just like scrape by; He didn't just obey the law. He far exceeded it. I have no doubt that Jesus loved and honored His mother more than any of us can claim we have done for our own mother. And therefore if Jesus honored her, so should I.
But, I guess we should also differentiate here. You aren't saying that "Marian devotion" and "Marian doctrine" are the same, are you?
God bless,
Grant
Rakka Rage
New Member
God might not see it that way...
Acts.4
[12] Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
GraceSaves
New Member
God might not see it that way...
Acts.4
[12] Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. </font>[/QUOTE]Considering I'm not talking in any way about salvation, I don't see your intent, nor did you state any intent. Please clarify your position.
No love that is pure love is contrary to God, for He is the source of all true love. Therefore, if my love of Mary, my mother, then it is in no way contrary to God, for He has instituted said love.
It is not like idol worship, in which I am seeking something, or that I have some obligation. She is a creature, of whom I love very much. And by loving her, I am taken closer to my God. If it took me away from my God, I would abandon it. It does not, so I retain it. The love is real, and that real love is from God.
So, I repeat, to love Mary, is to love God. Just like loving my earthly parents is to love God.
God bless you,
Grant
Grant,
But, why do you think that Mary is more deserving of honor than your other sisters in Christ?
I can not tell you that is illogical, because I can't speak for you. And I won't tell you I don't understand, because that won't change how you believe. But, have you ever asked yourself how Jesus feels about this?
Actually, I have a theory about " . . . he who is least in the Kingdom of God . . " but, I can not say for certain who Jesus was referencing at that time.
He sure stirred-up the Pharisees.
I'm not saying He didn't, but how is this shown in Scripture?
Because nobody has the capacity for/to love that Christ has.
I honor here as we are instructed to honor all brothers and sisters in Christ.
No, I'm not.
Rakka Rage
New Member
"Lucifer would have you worshiping even something good, if he could get some of the Praise and admiration off of JESUS."
GraceSaves
New Member
Did not Christ speak of rewards in Heaven? If it is a reward, that means that one can attain it or one can not attain it, even if both of these "ones" are going to heaven. That means that there has to be some form of status in heaven. Now, in Heaven there will be no jealousy, but that doesn't mean that there aren't people who are/have been closer to Christ, or people who have served Christ in magnificent ways.
Is Mary more deserving than others? All are deserving, which is why we honor all of the saints (just so you don't think I leave them out). However, Mary is the most significant of them all because she gave birth to our Savior, gave Him his human nature, was humble and obediant, and stood by Him until the end. Yes, I think that qualifies her for more attention.
I haven't always been Catholic, so yes, I prayed constantly about this, because I came from a very anti-Marian background. I was feeling very good about certain Catholic doctrines, so I knew the Church couldn't be "all bad." Some took more prayer and study, and the Marian doctrines was one of the more difficult ones. However, once I "got it," I felt Jesus approval of it. Again, if it took me away from Christ, I would have never have converted. I became Catholic for no one; I haven't been dating anyone for ten months (and plan on being celibate), my immediate family was against it, and none of my closest friends are Catholic. As far as the world is concerned, I had nothing to gain in my conversion. I did it because God lead me there, and I found God's peace there. And I found that same peace in Marian doctrine and devotion.
Well, since we aren't sure, perhaps this is a wrong angle to be approaching right now. No?
With ceremonial law (not washing hands before eating, etc). He didn't kill, He wasn't an adulter, He didn't steal, and I'm sure that He honored His father and mother, because this law was not done away with.
It's generally understood that Jesus would have kept the 10 commandments. They are His own law.
Which mean His love for His mother has no parallel.
Yet, surely you see that her role was unique.
No, I'm not. </font>[/QUOTE]So, then, because some are excessive in their devotion does not mean that their doctrine was off. Which is why it's better to stick to doctrine, not devotion, to have discussions.
God bless,
Grant
GraceSaves
New Member
"Lucifer would have you worshiping even something good, if he could get some of the Praise and admiration off of JESUS." </font>[/QUOTE]Rakka,
I encourage to really read my posts. Not just parts of it, but all of it. I have already explained to you multiple times that my love for Mary does not detract me from my love of God. If it did, I would cease the practice.
God bless,
Grant
Grant,
I just think that Jesus made obvious effort to prevent the exaltation of Mary. We'll all know why. He, being God, knew that as christian humans who love Him dearly, out of our human logic and nature, we would want to exalt His mother.
Anyhow, you said:
I just think that Jesus made obvious effort to prevent the exaltation of Mary. We'll all know why. He, being God, knew that as christian humans who love Him dearly, out of our human logic and nature, we would want to exalt His mother.
Anyhow, you said:
No. I think that's irrelevant since Jesus was speaking to and about people residing on earth at that precise moment. He was merely excepting whoever was least in heaven from His statement.
True, and I don't doubt he honored His mother and father, but not to the extent of people here on earth.
There is no evidence given in Scripture that Jesus loves His mother above any of us.
Well, not necessarily. I believe Marian devotion can become even too extreme for RC doctrine.
Well, I have some objections to RC Marian doctrine, also, but that's another topic.
GraceSaves
New Member
Lisa,
In short, I agree that Jesus did not exalt His mother while on earth. That doesn't mean that we aren't exalted in Heaven, and that Mary does not have a higher place than the average Joe. Know what I mean?
God bless,
Grant
In short, I agree that Jesus did not exalt His mother while on earth. That doesn't mean that we aren't exalted in Heaven, and that Mary does not have a higher place than the average Joe. Know what I mean?
God bless,
Grant
God might not see it that way...
Acts.4
[12] Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rakka:
I haven't read anywhere in the posts on this board that the Catholics are claiming that salvation comes through Mary. They have claimed over and over that she PRAYS for us.
Acts.4
[12] Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rakka:
I haven't read anywhere in the posts on this board that the Catholics are claiming that salvation comes through Mary. They have claimed over and over that she PRAYS for us.
