Master of Divinity Mini Discussion

[JonC]

Paul spent 3 years in the wilderness. The M.Div is (traditionally) 96 credit hours, or 3 years. I thought the correlation was obvious. I guess not. And Paul pastored the church at Ephesus for over three years (Acts 19:1, 10; 20:31).

Then one or the other of us has misunderstood the intent of the OP.

Jon, my initial response was my gentle way of suggesting you often go off on rabbit trails, reading into the OP or into posts subsequent to the OP, things that are just not there. It is my subtle way of saying "focus, focus."

I blame it in ADD. Not that I have ADD, but I am grateful I have you to pull me back on topic nontheless. (I thought we were talking about what degree one should aquire to enter the ministry. Sorry if my reply was off topic).

 

[The Biblicist]

Gentleman, the minimum prerequisites for a Pastor are clearly set forth in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 and there is nothing said about going to schools, degree programs or a "gold standard." When we start requiring more than the Bible requires then we are treading on thin ice.

Don't get me wrong, I have a graduate and four post-graduate degrees and so I value education. However, I value scripture a little bit more. I have seen Ph.D's that should not be in a seminary or pastorate.

Whom God calls, God prepares and the classroom is not always the ivory halls of academia.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

C.H. Spurgeon had no qualifications and all those that Martyn Lloyd-Jones had were medical, not theological.
I am far from criticizing academic qualifications for the ministry, but I do believe that studying at some seminaries is more of a hindrance than an advantage.

In the city near where I live in Britain there is a fine Baptist church. About 10 years ago when its Pastor left (or was pushed!), the church decided that the next Pastor would have to declare his belief in the entire Bible as the word of God. Over the next few years, they were sent at least six seminary-trained men by the Baptist Union, but none of them were able to make the required declaration. Eventually, they went outside the Baptist Union to take on a man, who, although not uneducated nor untrained, did not have a seminary degree. The church has gone from strength to strength under that man's leadership.

 

[JonC]

C.H. Spurgeon had no qualifications and all those that Martyn Lloyd-Jones had were medical, not theological.
I am far from criticizing academic qualifications for the ministry, but I do believe that studying at some seminaries is more of a hindrance than an advantage.

In the city near where I live in Britain there is a fine Baptist church. About 10 years ago when its Pastor left (or was pushed!), the church decided that the next Pastor would have to declare his belief in the entire Bible as the word of God. Over the next few years, they were sent at least six seminary-trained men by the Baptist Union, but none of them were able to make the required declaration. Eventually, they went outside the Baptist Union to take on a man, who, although not uneducated nor untrained, did not have a seminary degree. The church has gone from strength to strength under that man's leadership.

Good point.

God makes men what it is He has called them to be. I suspect many, if not most, of the time God uses the means of a formal Christian education. But I certainly would not demand of God those means.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Good point.

God makes men what it is He has called them to be. I suspect many, if not most, of the time God uses the means of a formal Christian education. But I certainly would not demand of God those means.

Do you think you get a better product with seminary edu.?

 

[JonC]

Do you think you get a better product with seminary edu.?

I do...depending on the seminary education, I suppose.

I believe that seminary should be an environment for those already trained by the local church to develop, defend, and explore their beliefs within a larger context of Christian orthodoxy. This goes beyond indoctrination and looks towards understanding how one's beliefs developed and the reasoning behind other positions. I believe seminary is also valuable as you can gain insights from a broader base. If I preach to my local church I may be applauded for repeating what they heard over and over again. But when I preach to a group of diverse students I may discover flaws in my presentation/argument that had gone unrecognized. I may have to defend what had been taken for granted based on tradition. It's also a safe place to deal with doctrine.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I do...depending on the seminary education, I suppose.

I believe that seminary should be an environment for those already trained by the local church to develop, defend, and explore their beliefs within a larger context of Christian orthodoxy. This goes beyond indoctrination and looks towards understanding how one's beliefs developed and the reasoning behind other positions. I believe seminary is also valuable as you can gain insights from a broader base. If I preach to my local church I may be applauded for repeating what they heard over and over again. But when I preach to a group of diverse students I may discover flaws in my presentation/argument that had gone unrecognized. I may have to defend what had been taken for granted based on tradition. It's also a safe place to deal with doctrine.

Up here in NJ, they no longer believe & teach doctrine......or so I'm told. LOL!

But you know, there is subtle indoctrination from each of the churches I have been involved in.....IE the RCC indoctrinated me in its DOGMA & Ways, The Presbys (the Orthodox ones ....not the Liberals) attempted to do the same....& finally baptists (both Reformed & Anominian) have all attempted to do the same. So who is right & who is wrong? I don't know, but a good education in basics of Christianity / Doctrine of Christ, Bible Study, Greek & Hebrew, all help. Especially if you intend to lead others.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Out of curiosity Jon, are there churches that would actually train you & send you to Seminary?

I got a feeling that the Landmark Churches would do it....they tend to groom you 'womb to tomb" & beyond. Tell the truth, I have become much more interested in their brand of religion to date.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

C.H. Spurgeon had no qualifications and all those that Martyn Lloyd-Jones had were medical, not theological.
I am far from criticizing academic qualifications for the ministry, but I do believe that studying at some seminaries is more of a hindrance than an advantage.

In the city near where I live in Britain there is a fine Baptist church. About 10 years ago when its Pastor left (or was pushed!), the church decided that the next Pastor would have to declare his belief in the entire Bible as the word of God. Over the next few years, they were sent at least six seminary-trained men by the Baptist Union, but none of them were able to make the required declaration. Eventually, they went outside the Baptist Union to take on a man, who, although not uneducated nor untrained, did not have a seminary degree. The church has gone from strength to strength under that man's leadership.

So your saying that experience is more important than Seminary? What if the Pastor cannot translate from Greek & Hebrew.....is that a problem?

I'm asking this because the Church I attend is now searching for a New Pastor.

 

[JonC]

Out of curiosity Jon, are there churches that would actually train you & send you to Seminary?

I got a feeling that the Landmark Churches would do it....they tend to groom you 'womb to tomb" & beyond. Tell the truth, I have become much more interested in their brand of religion to date.

I do not know. This is one issue that I have with evangelical churches today. It is as if they want someone else to do their job of discipleship. It is what I believe to be a problem in my own denomination as a whole. And it is one reason I just moved my membership to another church (which is also SBC).

I don't know about Landmark Churches (I disagree with Landmarkism but apart from the CoC it is not a common doctrine where I live). But to go back on my other post and expound, I think that seminaries are often valuable because they challenge tradition that may not be challenged at a local level (or that is held as truth when in fact it is error). That said, there are "seminaries" and there are seminaries. I often see "seminaries" that are nothing but indoctrination in tradition.

 

[TCassidy]

Do you think you get a better product with seminary edu.?

Depends on what you mean by "better." A Seminary educated man will have a greater expertise in Hebrew and Greek. A better understanding of theological nuance. A better understanding of the "sharing" principle. A better grasp of ecclesiastical history. And, if his seminary offered a research degree, a better understanding of the availability and use of research methodology.

Can an uneducated man be a good preacher and a good pastor? Of course.

Might he find himself limited by his lack of formal education. It's certainly possible.

Formal education is not a panacea, but it can certainly equip a man to increase his knowledge.

The President of the Seminary I attended said "A Seminary education is not the end of learning. It just teaches you how to learn, and gives you the tools necessary to continue your learning experience through your entire lifetime."

 

[TCassidy]

It is as if they want someone else to do their job of discipleship.

This is a common problem across today's evangelicalism. There is a tragic failure to understand Ephesians 4:11-12 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ."

All too many people think the purpose of the gifted men is to do the work of the ministry and build up the body of Christ.

What they fail to understand is that the gifted men are to mature the saints.

The saints are then to do the work of the ministry and build up the body of Christ.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This is a common problem across today's evangelicalism. There is a tragic failure to understand Ephesians 4:11-12 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ."

All too many people think the purpose of the gifted men is to do the work of the ministry and build up the body of Christ.

What they fail to understand is that the gifted men are to mature the saints.

The saints are then to do the work of the ministry and build up the body of Christ.

Wow, where do you find such a church.....Ive looked high & low and to date, none of that ilk ever materialized. Perhaps this is why the area I live in is so non caring for one another (shakes head)

 

[TCassidy]

Wow, where do you find such a church.

I pastored one for 27 years. And am presently a member of one here in Texas.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I pastored one for 27 years. And am presently a member of one here in Texas.

Thats a long way from my home town. We got pleanty of Catholics though.....go a block theres one, another block still another, 1/2 mile oh there's one......and one & on & on. Say the word "Baptist" and watch the face turn . Yea we got one. Its in three towns over....no wait, its a furniture store now.! Gee I don't know fella......How bout a Methodist church, its right down the street! "AND I TAINT KIDDIN"

 

[Martin Marprelate]

So you're saying that experience is more important than Seminary? What if the Pastor cannot translate from Greek & Hebrew.....is that a problem?

I'm asking this because the Church I attend is now searching for a New Pastor.

I'm saying that the Holy Spirit prepares a man for ministry. I'm sure that a seminary education is a great advantage, but it is more important that God has called and prepared him.
I'm not sure that a knowledge of Greek and Hebrew is vital, though it is certainly very helpful. Spurgeon and Lloyd-Jones taught themselves those languages.

I hope your church finds a good man. Choose a godly man over a learned one, but God willing, you will get both.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'm saying that the Holy Spirit prepares a man for ministry. I'm sure that a seminary education is a great advantage, but it is more important that God has called and prepared him.
I'm not sure that a knowledge of Greek and Hebrew is vital, though it is certainly very helpful. Spurgeon and Lloyd-Jones taught themselves those languages.

I hope your church finds a good man. Choose a godly man over a learned one, but God willing, you will get both.

Brother, thanks but they are still another Antonomian Church & they are all around here....so whatever they get they get. God willing, they will choose a Doctrines of Grace guy & perhaps even .... well I wont go there, its in the future.

 

[JonC]

I'm saying that the Holy Spirit prepares a man for ministry. I'm sure that a seminary education is a great advantage, but it is more important that God has called and prepared him.
I'm not sure that a knowledge of Greek and Hebrew is vital, though it is certainly very helpful. Spurgeon and Lloyd-Jones taught themselves those languages.

I hope your church finds a good man. Choose a godly man over a learned one, but God willing, you will get both.

I think that this is the difference between viewing the ministry as a calling rather than a professional vocation. But I don't think that these things are exclusive (seminary and preparation of the Spirit). God is a God of means. When the Holy Spirit calls a man into the ministry I believe that the Holy Spirit does prepare that man but often that preparation is in the form of seminary.

I mention this only because some people (I'm not saying you, brother) have, in the past, discussed seminary as somehow separate from the preparation of the Spirit to the ministry when in fact seminary may well be the means of preparation. I agree that when God calls a man God makes that man what He has called him to be.

 

[Sapper Woody]

Wow, where do you find such a church.....Ive looked high & low and to date, none of that ilk ever materialized. Perhaps this is why the area I live in is so non caring for one another (shakes head)

I loved the church I attended in Mackinaw, IL. It was a small church (70-100), and never grew beyond that. But it had new members coming in all the time. What was happening is that we had a ton of "preacherboys" (of which I was one) and they were expected to train under the pastor for a few years, preaching in jails, nursing homes, and sometimes even on the street. After a few years of training, they would go out and plant churches or full pulpits in churches looking for pastors.

It was a nice, energetic atmosphere. It ran that way for years. Unfortunately, (without any details) the church underwent some trying times that ended with the pastor leaving, and then the church splitting over the decision of who the new pastor should be.

Before that though, it was on fire, pumping out preachers and establishing new ministries.

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I loved the church I attended in Mackinaw, IL. It was a small church (70-100), and never grew beyond that. But it had new members coming in all the time. What was happening is that we had a ton of "preacherboys" (of which I was one) and they were expected to train under the pastor for a few years, preaching in jails, nursing homes, and sometimes even on the street. After a few years of training, they would go out and plant churches or full pulpits in churches looking for pastors.

It was a nice, energetic atmosphere. It ran that way for years. Unfortunately, (without any details) the church underwent some trying times that ended with the pastor leaving, and then the church splitting over the decision of who the new pastor should be.

Before that though, it was on fire, pumping out preachers and establishing new ministries.

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk

Ohhhh, but it didn't last!?! Now there is the RUB...and disturbing. I suspect human frailty did it in.