Master of Theology from SBTS

[Havensdad]

Alright,

I am planning on entering a Master of Theology program (I am still 9 months away from completing my M.Div), and I am looking for somewhere that has a modular format (1-2 week intensives, etc.). So far, I have found Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, which would be stupendous, and would actually be my first choice.

I know, however, that admissions is somewhat competitive (though not as much as the Ph.D. program). My question is for those who have some experience with SBTS; what do you think my chances are of getting admitted with a M.Div. from Liberty? So far I have a 4.0 GPA. Also, I have been taking Biblical language classes from New Orleans Baptist, which I have a 4.0 in as well. I believe my GRE verbal score was 690, and my writing score was 4.0 (though I can retake, and bring that up. I had no preparation, really).

The only difficulty that I have, is that I do not have an accredited 4 year BA. I have an unnaccredited BA, an accredited 3 year Bachelors from SATS (South African theological Seminary), and a few credits here and there, including 24 credits in biology and anthropology from Charter Oak State College.

I am curious about my chances; also, any other schools which have an Th.M program structured in a modular way (other than Liberty, who only has a S.T.M.)? I would really rather not shell out hundreds of dollars in application fees...

 

[labaptist]

How come you didn't go for the 'Honours' 4 year ThB at SATS? I would think that that would of helped you more if you wanted to get into Southern?

 

[Havensdad]

How come you didn't go for the 'Honours' 4 year ThB at SATS? I would think that that would of helped you more if you wanted to get into Southern?

Because I got accepted into Liberty, and I would have had to take all of the classes over again. The classes in the 4th year of the SATS degree, are all required in the M.Div. at Liberty, and Liberty will not give advanced standing on these classes. I do not wish to waste time taking the same classes twice.

Also, the BTh honours would not have helped me that much. Southern is big on the Liberal Arts; they actually discourage undergrads in Theology and Bible. They want you to have science (which I have), writing, English, history, etc.

 

[Rhetorician]

HD Response

HD,

Why do you want the ThM, as a "leveling" degree to apply for a PhD at SBTS or other good school?

"That is all!" :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Greektim]

HD,

Why do you want the ThM, as a "leveling" degree to apply for a PhD at SBTS or other good school?

"That is all!" :smilewinkgrin:

Some people get a ThM to prep for a PhD b/c they went with the BA & MA in Bib Studies route and don't want to bother with the MDiv

 

[Havensdad]

HD,

Why do you want the ThM, as a "leveling" degree to apply for a PhD at SBTS or other good school?

"That is all!" :smilewinkgrin:

#1 Because I think a Pastor should get all the theological education that he is capable of. I believe I am capable of a greater depth of preparation, so that is what I am going to do.

#2 I would love to teach some online adjunct classes. Most of the ones I have looked at, require a ThM as a minimum.

#3 I might do a Ph.D...again, depending on my own abilities. I know I am capable of much greater depth than the M.Div. level...so I want to do the ThM. I am not sure how much more difficult the Ph.D is, but if the ThM does not stretch me to my limits, then I will proceed forward.


Ahem..."That is all" :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Rhetorician]

Greek Tim Response

Some people get a ThM to prep for a PhD b/c they went with the BA & MA in Bib Studies route and don't want to bother with the MDiv

Most places that are ATS accredited will not allow one into the ThM without the MDiv, from what I have observed. Because it assumes that you have acquired the tools needed to do the ThM from the MDiv degree, such as the Biblical Languages.

"That is all!" :thumbs:

 

[Rhetorician]

ThM vs. PhD

#1 Because I think a Pastor should get all the theological education that he is capable of. I believe I am capable of a greater depth of preparation, so that is what I am going to do.

#2 I would love to teach some online adjunct classes. Most of the ones I have looked at, require a ThM as a minimum.

#3 I might do a Ph.D...again, depending on my own abilities. I know I am capable of much greater depth than the M.Div. level...so I want to do the ThM. I am not sure how much more difficult the Ph.D is, but if the ThM does not stretch me to my limits, then I will proceed forward.


Ahem..."That is all" :smilewinkgrin:

HD,

I will allow you, just this once, to quote me sarcastically!!! :smilewinkgrin: :tongue3:

If you can get into the ThM at Southern and do well, you can surely do the PhD. They are basically the same intensity with some minor differences. I think you can do it. But given your background the ThM would serve you well, whatever you do down the road.

I, for one, have the utmost confidence in you. :applause:

 

[Havensdad]

HD,

I will allow you, just this once, to quote me sarcastically!!! :smilewinkgrin: :tongue3:

If you can get into the ThM at Southern and do well, you can surely do the PhD. They are basically the same intensity with some minor differences. I think you can do it. But given your background the ThM would serve you well, whatever you do down the road.

I, for one, have the utmost confidence in you. :applause:

Thanks, Rhet.

 

[Greektim]

Most places that are ATS accredited will not allow one into the ThM without the MDiv, from what I have observed. Because it assumes that you have acquired the tools needed to do the ThM from the MDiv degree, such as the Biblical Languages.

"That is all!" :thumbs:

That is why I am doing some MDiv leveling classes (4 of them). I also did some post-grad studies as well, so that factored into my ThM status. Ultimately, my biggest problem was undergrad stuff & poor accreditation. I did most of my Greek at the undergrad level. And I went to a TRACS school. That has come back to haunt me. So hopefully a ThM from SEBTS will clear all that up (SACS & ATS accredited ). raying:

 

[Havensdad]

That is why I am doing some MDiv leveling classes (4 of them). I also did some post-grad studies as well, so that factored into my ThM status. Ultimately, my biggest problem was undergrad stuff & poor accreditation. I did most of my Greek at the undergrad level. And I went to a TRACS school. That has come back to haunt me. So hopefully a ThM from SEBTS will clear all that up (SACS & ATS accredited ). raying:

Were u already acccepted into SEBTS?

 

[TomVols]

Southern is big on the Liberal Arts; they actually discourage undergrads in Theology and Bible.

Huh?

Didn't hurt me one bit and I never ran into a soul that was hurt for having a Biblical/Theological major in undergrad work. My BA is in Bible/Theology with a minor in Pastoral studies. However, I had significant liberal arts work. But they loved Bible college majors. We usually ended up as GFs or mentors/shepherd group leaders.

Now, to the point:

If you know you're going to do the PhD, I wouldn't do the ThM, though most places are encouraging this (it's also another revenue stream). However, if you think you might do the D.Min, I'd do the ThM. That way, you'd have a terminal professional degree and a research degree too.

I never intended on doing a ThM since I was headed for the PhD right after M.Div. But that was a long time ago. Still, if you know you're going for the PhD, go for that and bypass the ThM. SBTS offers the PhD in some areas in modular format, and they also have beefed up some D.Min programs (they offer one in theology, for instance). I wasn't aware the ThM is now modular at SBTS.

Above all, whatever you choose to do, do it at SBTS. That's the only way God will bless your ministry :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Greektim]

Were u already acccepted into SEBTS?

Yes... I was going into their PhD program, but wanted another masters degree (didn't feel ready for a PhD yet). So I went from the PhD admissions to the ThM. SEBTS has a really cool ThM program as well. The flexibility will help me achieve what I want out of the school. Their PhD goes in a different direction for me. Thus SBTS will probably be my school of choice for PhD.

 

[gb93433]

#1 Because I think a Pastor should get all the theological education that he is capable of. I believe I am capable of a greater depth of preparation, so that is what I am going to do.

#2 I would love to teach some online adjunct classes. Most of the ones I have looked at, require a ThM as a minimum.

#3 I might do a Ph.D...again, depending on my own abilities. I know I am capable of much greater depth than the M.Div. level...so I want to do the ThM. I am not sure how much more difficult the Ph.D is, but if the ThM does not stretch me to my limits, then I will proceed forward.

There is one thing you need for sure that most seminaries and theological schools do not teach and that is to make disciples. Too many leave seminary thinking they have the skills to reach people and when they find themselves shuffling people from class to class with little productivity and spiritual reproduction they find themselves perplexed.

A good book to possibly wet your appetite would be Pastoring Men: What Works, What Doesn't, and Why It Matters Now More Than Ever by Patrick Morley

 

[Havensdad]

There is one thing you need for sure that most seminaries and theological schools do not teach and that is to make disciples.

That is because you cannot teach someone to do something only God can do. Making disciples, in the Biblical sense, is to evangelize. When I preach the Gospel, and people are regenerated by God, it is then my job to teach them (impart information)...not hold there hand and tell them what to do. That is God's Job...it is God that sanctifies.

Too many churches try to develop various programs, to try and "trick" people into acting like real Christians. But the Bible does not tell us that we are to be the arbiters of others sanctification. We preach the Word. God does the rest.

 

[gb93433]

That is because you cannot teach someone to do something only God can do. Making disciples, in the Biblical sense, is to evangelize. When I preach the Gospel, and people are regenerated by God, it is then my job to teach them (impart information)...not hold there hand and tell them what to do. That is God's Job...it is God that sanctifies.

I would suggest that you do a word study on mathetes and you will see something very different than what you think. (A good book to read on the subject is Following the Master: A Biblical Theology of Discipleship by Michael J. Wilkins). That word is only used in the Gospels and Acts. However the idea stems back from the cost of being a rabbi. Making disciples is not to evangelize at all. Evangelism is only the start. Jesus did not say evangelize all nations. He said make disciples of all nations. Evangelism is like a woman making babies. Making disciples is like making sure they are raised to maturity and can function as an adult. Making converts is to make babies that are not mature even when they are old.

Too many churches try to develop various programs, to try and "trick" people into acting like real Christians. But the Bible does not tell us that we are to be the arbiters of others sanctification. We preach the Word. God does the rest.

You have missed most of what Jesus did with His disciples and taught in the Gospels. You have focused away from scripture and focused on those who do not have a clue what they are doing. Making disciples is not a program.

Could you explain what Paul meant when he told the elders from Ephesus in Acts 20:28, "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood."

Who is the overseer in Acts 20:28? The Holy Spirit or you?

In Mt. 29:19, 20 who makes disciples you or God? Who is the command directed toward? You or God?

Show me one place in the Bible where God makes disciples.

Show me one place in the Bible where God is the overseer.

 

[Siberian]

Show me one place in the Bible where God makes disciples.

Matt 4.18-22

 

[gb93433]

Matt 4.18-22

How is the context of that God making disciples? All I see is that Jesus called four fisherman to come follow Him and that is what men should be doing today. But today we have feminine churches with a serious lack of leadership. Making disciples provides mature men who lead and training others to lead just as we see Jesus doing in the Gospels. Making mature disciples does not happen in a classroom and from a pulpit. It happens with mature disciples leading other disciples. I am sure you read that the older women are to teach the younger women . . . "

I have not ever seen one church that has a lack of leadership if they are making disciples. Anyone knows in most churches it is the women who are doing the work while men sit idly by. The man in the church are a product of the ministry among men in that church.

Since the Bible says that we are to follow Jesus the author and perfecter of faith then you provided a good example of what men ought to be doing. They should be leading men to follow Christ. Leading men is making disciples. I have pastored churches where men who had listened to hundreds if not thousands of sermons had never shared their faith. A few years ago I took one of those men and trained him and sent him out with his family. Two hours later he was a changed man. as a result he started two Bible studies in the community and his wife had started a ministry among women in the community. Two hours of real trust in Jesus and he was changed forever. That man changing was the start of that church changing. That church had reached a low of ten people at one time. Today it owns 20 acres, a church building, and everything paid for. They could have listened to my sermons for life and still would not have done anything. Many of them had done that for forty years and yet the church was dying and nearly extinct. It is far from dying today.

 

[Havensdad]

I would suggest that you do a word study on mathetes and you will see something very different than what you think. (A good book to read on the subject is Following the Master: A Biblical Theology of Discipleship by Michael J. Wilkins).

I have done a word study on it. That Greek Word Mathetes, as Bill Mounce will be quick to point out to you, is synonomous with "Christian." It does not denote any special function; "making disciples" means to "make Christians..." a.k.a evangelize. A good book for you to read is "The Gospel According to Jesus" by John Macarthur.

Or you can just read the Bible.

That word is only used in the Gospels and Acts.

And it is used to connote every single Christian. It is never denoted as some kind of hand holding process. When Phillip shared the gospel with the Ethiopian Eunuch, he "made" a disciple. And then the Holy Spirit whisked him away. Horrors! How did that man ever survive without a "discipleship" program (read, "Goat training session"). All he had was the Holy Spirit and the Bible!

However the idea stems back from the cost of being a rabbi. Making disciples is not to evangelize at all. Evangelism is only the start.

It is the start and finish. We are to "make" disciples, then, after they are made, we "Teach" the Word to those disciples. This is how Matthew 28 reads.

Jesus did not say evangelize all nations. He said make disciples of all nations. Evangelism is like a woman making babies. Making disciples is like making sure they are raised to maturity and can function as an adult. Making converts is to make babies that are not mature even when they are old.

Simply not so. I agree we are not just to "make converts." "Converts" are spiritually dead, mental assenters. We are to make "disciples", that is, true Christians. How? Through the preaching and teaching of the Word.

You have missed most of what Jesus did with His disciples and taught in the Gospels. You have focused away from scripture and focused on those who do not have a clue what they are doing. Making disciples is not a program.

Not at all. You are comparing yourself to Jesus. Stop. Your not Him. Jesus was not just making "disciples." Jesus was making Apostles, who would write His word, and renew His Church. And the Holy Spirit had not yet been given.

Could you explain what Paul meant when he told the elders from Ephesus in Acts 20:28, "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood."

He meant that the local Pastor was not to let bad teaching or false doctrine into the local body.

Who is the overseer in Acts 20:28? The Holy Spirit or you?

Again, this is not talking about hand holding.

In Mt. 29:19, 20 who makes disciples you or God? Who is the command directed toward? You or God?

We "make disciples" by preaching and teaching the Word. God's Spirit takes it from there.



Show me one place in the Bible where God makes disciples.

Show me one place in the Bible where God is the overseer.[/QUOTE]

1 Peter 5:4.

Someone else has already your answered your question regarding God making disciples. You are failing to see a distinction between Jesus and us, pre Spirit, and post Spirit.

You mention "Leadership" programs in another post. I am a youth pastor. My youth go out and evangelize, volunteer, do missions, lead people to Christ, etc. I have never had to have a "program." I have never had to do anything more than just preaching and teaching the scriptures. The Bible states that it is the "Word of God" which is "Working" in His children. We do not need more "leadership" who had to be pushed and coerced into doing what they should be doing. This puts false converts, that is goats, into the place of leadership. The Church is failing because people are not willing to step back and let the Holy Spirit do His work.

Now, I suggest you quit derailing my thread. Please do not post any more on this subject, as it is off topic. I am trying to get input on the ThM program, not debate your [snipped}

 

[gb93433]

I have done a word study on it. That Greek Word Mathetes, as Bill Mounce will be quick to point out to you, is synonomous with "Christian." It does not denote any special function; "making disciples" means to "make Christians..." a.k.a evangelize. A good book for you to read is "The Gospel According to Jesus" by John Macarthur.

Try looking in the TDNT or reading Wilkins’ works rather than Mounce. I do not need to read or follow MacArthur. All I need to do is to follow Jesus the author and perfecter of faith and follow how He made disciples. Just down the road from MacArthur is a seminary professor (Michael J. Wilkins) who has been majoring in discipleship from Matthew’s gospel both from a theological point of view and pragmatic point of view for many years. He has spoken on the subject in America and around the world. He would very much disagree with you.

And it is used to connote every single Christian. It is never denoted as some kind of hand holding process. When Phillip shared the gospel with the Ethiopian Eunuch, he "made" a disciple. And then the Holy Spirit whisked him away. Horrors! How did that man ever survive without a "discipleship" program (read, "Goat training session"). All he had was the Holy Spirit and the Bible!

You forgot one thing. He was being a disciple. Being discipled and being a disciple are completely different things. One is a person the other is a verb.

It is the start and finish. We are to "make" disciples, then, after they are made, we "Teach" the Word to those disciples. This is how Matthew 28 reads.

Where is teach the word in Mt. 28:19, 20? It says, teaching them to observe all Jesus commanded. So are you suggesting that we teach an intellectual Bible with a white Jesus or a Jesus that got his feet wet and spat upon as he did ministry. I have not ever once net a person making disciples who does not try to live out what scripture teaches but I have met many “program directors” who do not share their faith or read their Bible. When I meet with men each week we discuss their walk with God and things they have questions about. It was not too long ago I had a discussion with someone about their struggle with pornography. I would never share some of the things I shared with him from any pulpit in America with women and children present. It would completely inappropriate for any woman or child to hear what we discussed.

Simply not so. I agree we are not just to "make converts." "Converts" are spiritually dead, mental assenters. We are to make "disciples", that is, true Christians. How? Through the preaching and teaching of the Word.

Converts is what preaching does if there is no follow up with discipleship. Preaching and teaching is only a part of making disciples not the whole thing. Read Acts 20 again and see who the overseers are. They are not the Holy Spirit but the men. Reread the gospels and see what Jesus did. I cannot think of a better model. It has worked until now. It is only when men decide they have a better idea that it falls flat.

Jesus was not just making "disciples." Jesus was making Apostles, who would write His word, and renew His Church. And the Holy Spirit had not yet been given.

So in Hebrews we are to focus on Jesus but in Matthew 28:19, 20 He said he would make apostles and disciples? You are confusing making disciples and who a disciple is. There are many cars in the junk yard just waiting to be hauled off for scrap while there are cars transporting people on the road. All are cars, but which one is a better car? There are many disciples of Jesus and there are fewer who observe all that Jesus commanded.

He meant that the local Pastor was not to let bad teaching or false doctrine into the local body.

That includes the false teaching about discipleship so prevalent among those who do not make disciples as Jesus commanded.

Again, this is not talking about hand holding. We "make disciples" by preaching and teaching the Word. God's Spirit takes it from there.

Explain that in terms of being a pastor and what Paul told the elders in Acts 20? Let me assure you I have never held anyone’s hand. I find people in the church for the most part to be afraid and seriously lack boldness. I take them out to share my faith and other encounters. Every one of them share their faith today. Many of them are pastors and missionaries today who were once pew warmers in a church listening to someone preach week after week.

Show me one place in the Bible where God is the overseer? 1 Peter 5:4.

Did you read the first three verses of that chapter?

You mention "Leadership" programs in another post. I am a youth pastor. My youth go out and evangelize, volunteer, do missions, lead people to Christ, etc. I have never had to have a "program." I have never had to do anything more than just preaching and teaching the scriptures. The Bible states that it is the "Word of God" which is "Working" in His children. We do not need more "leadership" who had to be pushed and coerced into doing what they should be doing. This puts false converts, that is goats, into the place of leadership. The Church is failing because people are not willing to step back and let the Holy Spirit do His work.

While that can be true that is also something you can teach FAT (Faithful, available, teachable) people. I am meeting with a young man right now who grew up in the church while leading other youth into atheism. Josh McDowell wrote in the book “Right From Wrong” that about 25% of the youth in church are involved in immoral behavior. I met with a young man a few days ago who got a girl pregnant who is in the church. He just became a Christian.
I have met with over 200 men and couples over those years and most of them came to Christ in a church but did not grow. That says a lot about the true effectiveness of just preaching. Jesus was not that good. He said and did what He taught by discipling men and holding them accountable. There is a difference between making disciples and being the one who causes the growth. I can plant corn, water the plants, fertilize the plants and reap the harvest but I cannot cause it to grow. I can provide everything but the plant and growth. God provides the seed and growth and He commands me to do the rest.