It was probably an unintended consequence of God's general design. The creation is a unity. One can't change one (major?) component without changing everything. God could have created a different universe but that different universe would not be this universe. It is proposed that (God did) and our universe is a part of a mulitverse.
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Mat 19:17 and the Word "good"
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
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Heavenly Pilgrim
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HP: If it is ALL of God, faith is all of God. If faith is all of God, then only those granted faith can be saved. That is as fatalistic as it gets. Double predestination rules if everything is all of God, and the end is that God of necessity is the author of all evil.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: It doesn't matter what one claims if in fact the facts prove otherwise. If it is all of God, God alone is the cause. If God alone is the cause, case closed. Call it based on foreknowledge or not, the same ends apply.
HP: God tosses no coin. He has designed man to be able of their own will to accept or reject His offer. He calls on all men everywhere to repent.
Are you sure? DHK commented that God is not the author of evil. It seems to me that he would also say that God created everything except the one thing that does not fit his theology.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: DHK knows intuitively that God is not the author of evil, but his theology necessitates it to be so. He cannot say salvation is ALL of God, without the converse being true as well, i.e., those not chosen were not chosen by God, thus doomed by an act of God Himself. God chose to with hold the necessary means of their salvation, eliminating all possibility that they ever could have been saved.
Double predestination is a necessitated concept of those that claim salvation is ALL of God. They cannot escape the fatalistic end of their belief, try as they may.
Let me make sure that you and I are on the same page. You realize there are two different readings found in the total number of manscripts concerning Matthew 19:17? Some Greek mansucrpts of Matthew say one thing and another group say another thing?
Matthew in the KJV follows one group of Greek manuscripts and Matthew in another version follows the other group of Greek manscripts, while all versions agree on the same reading in Luke and Mark.
So you are suggesting that the Matthew reading found in the KJV and the Matthew reading found in other versions are both inspired of God = meaning both were written into the original autograph of Matthew when Matthew himself wrote it. You are suggest he wrote both?
If that were the case then you should not be arguing for one over the other but for both and if both are there then you have the same problem.
Or are yous saying Matthew actually wrote one of them and a later copist was inspired of God to remove what Matthew actually said and replace it with words he thought should be there?
Or are you saying Matthew actually wrote the one contrary to Mark and Luke but all three accurately portray the wording of that conversation which means Christ actually said both and so Matthew recorded one part and Mark and Luke the other part. If that is case, then again you still have the same problem as both should be in the actual conversation.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Biblicist, tell me how you feel and I will tell you if I agree with you. :thumbs:
What is your definition of "double" predestination?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Some are predestined to salvation, all others predestined to damnation. Calvin clearly admitted that it was a necessitated end of his theology.
Fatalism is a major tenet of Islam. Some time ago in another nation a terrorist act was committed (similar to a suicide bombing) which resulted in the death of innocent lives. The day after I was visiting my Muslim neighbors. When the conversation turned to the incident, he simply said; "It is Allah's will." That is fatalism. They look at what has happened in the past and say it is God's will because that is what has happened. I have heard some preachers define the sovereignty of God in the same way unfortunately. That is not what we believe as Christians. We do not believe in fatalism. We do not look back and say that all those abortions were God's will; that that suicide bombing was God's will; that murder of any kind is God's will.
God's will is "that all should come to repentance and that none should perish."
God's will does not get accomplished because man has a free will and a depraved heart. The consequences of man's horrible decisions (the holocaust) is not necessarily God's will. To say that it is, is fatalism. Que sera sera. We don't believe that.
I am not a Calvinist, HP. You do realize that don't you.
God is not the author of evil. Where do you get the idea that he is, or even that I implied that he is. Give an explicit quote. Quote me or stop making foolish statements about things that I don't believe.
Salvation is all of God. If it isn't then Jesus is a liar when he said "It is finished."
The author of Hebrews lied when he said "Christ is the author and finisher of our faith."
Paul lied when he said: "For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God not of works lest any man should boast."
Who should I believe HP? You or the Bible?
A false statement made up by your imagination and misunderstanding of salvation. Salvation is all of God and has nothing to do with double predestination or predestination of any kind. Why do you bring that into this conversation. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. What has that got to do with predestination? Nothing!
You don't know what you are talking about.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I have heard you say that and believe it is your heart. The problem lies in the inconsistency when you say it is all of God. If you believe as you say you do, may I kindly suggest that you rethink and reword your comment about salvation being 'all of God?" If one says it is all of God, one needs to qualify what he means by that in order to avoid confusion.
If we are speaking of the grounds of salvation alone, indeed we can say salvation is all of God. But if were speaking of the means by which salvation is actually accomplished, again it cannot be all of God without ending in fatalism. Man's will must be involved in salvation if fatalism is to be avoided. Man's will must be the first cause of fulfilling those conditions.
We know full well that man's will is not involved in the plan of salvation, or in the means by which salvation's plan is carried out, but indeed the will of man must be involved in ones individual salvation, or once again we land in the trap of fatalism.
By saying that man's will is involved in salvation by no means does that suggest that one works for their salvation. Just as I used the illustration of those in the ship with Paul, and the prisoner receiving a pardon, to show forth that indeed and the prisoner receive their safety and/or pardon via grace, not works. Just the same it can be rightfully said that neither the man saved on that ship, or the man receiving a pardon, receive either apart from their active obedience in fulfilling the necessary conditions for their safety or pardon.
God's plan of salvation in and of itself saves no one. It is the means by which men are saved but the plan is not the cause of their salvation. God has built the bridge whereby all men may be saved, but the bridge itself is the means by which salvation is accomplished, but is not the only means by which it is completed. God, in his sovereignty, has chosen to set forth conditions, without which, no man shall be saved. Those conditions as set forth in Scripture are initially repentance and faith. Those are works God calls upon man to do voluntarily and without coercion.
Only as man willingly and voluntarily fulfills the stated conditions of repentance and faith is salvation accomplished individually in our lives. Those act of the will, the fulfilling of the conditions set forth by God by man, are the disconnect that separates Biblical salvation from fatalism. Remove those conditions and or remove man's will from its active participation of obedience to those conditions, and fatalism is the only end possible.
So God created everything but one thing--evil? If God did not create evil then where did that choice come from? Evil came from some where. Evil could not exist if it were not present in creation.
I have a problem believing what you say on the basis of 1 Sam 16 where we see the words "an evil spirit from the Lord". The LXX and MT have the same preposition. It hard to do a dance around those words and then to think that God did not create everything. When you respond please respond as a Jew would have because that is who the text is written to and the writer was a Jew who did not think like a North American.
Now, HP, I never said that. Get your sources right:
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Again, get your sources straight. I quoted a number of Scriptures for you all saying that Salvation is all of God. "It is finished," Jesus said. He paid it all.
The confusion is all yours. Salvation is all of God, from beginning to end. God begins. God carries it through. He also is the finisher of it. You still have a problem?
You are speaking foolishly.
Being justified by faith we have peace with God.
Do you have a problem with the Word of God?
Salvation is by faith alone. But it is not by works. Salvation is also all of God.
You are confused. There are no works. Study Eph.2:8,9.
Salvation is all of God. It is not of works. Why do you continue to deny what the Bible says. Salvation is by faith, but not of works.
1. Faith is not a work.
2. I don't believe you understand what repentance is.
If you believe in fatalism go join Islam.
You have just described a works-based salvation. Every religion of the world believes this except for Christianity. Why do you persist in this nonsense?
For the origin of evil I would rather look to the rebellion of Lucifer. Lucifer, as well as the other angels were created perfect. Lucifer decision was to rebel against God. This story is recorded both in Isaiah 14 and Ezek.28. He wanted to be like the most High, to sit in His place. He was proud and puffed up and ready to wage war against God. In his rebellion one third of the angels followed him. They were all cast out of heaven. That is the source of evil.
In some way that we don't understand God still has power even over the demons. In fact the demons tremble before Christ as we see in the gospels. In the Book of Job, we see Lucifer standing before the Lord and talking with him. Satan could only do to Job what God allowed him. That corresponds to your reference about God "sending" a lying spirit. God "sent" Satan or allowed him to do evil to Job. They cannot do beyond what God will allow them to do. God knows the outcome. The initial rebellion was an act of Lucifer's will, and had nothing to do with God being the author of evil.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Quote:
DHK: God's will is "that all should come to repentance and that none should perish."
God's will does not get accomplished because man has a free will and a depraved heart. The consequences of man's horrible decisions (the holocaust) is not necessarily God's will. To say that it is, is fatalism. Que sera sera. We don't believe that.
Here was my response: HP: I have heard you say that and believe it is your heart. The problem lies in the inconsistency when you say it is all of God. If you believe as you say you do, may I kindly suggest that you rethink and reword your comment about salvation being 'all of God?" If one says it is all of God, one needs to qualify what he means by that in order to avoid confusion.
HP: DHK, I was agreeing with you that you have said "that all should come to repentance and that none should perish." If there is a source to get straight is you that needs to do the straightening, for it was your direct remark I was referring to. Is someone else posting by the name of DHK?
DHK: God's will is "that all should come to repentance and that none should perish."
God's will does not get accomplished because man has a free will and a depraved heart. The consequences of man's horrible decisions (the holocaust) is not necessarily God's will. To say that it is, is fatalism. Que sera sera. We don't believe that.
Here was my response: HP: I have heard you say that and believe it is your heart. The problem lies in the inconsistency when you say it is all of God. If you believe as you say you do, may I kindly suggest that you rethink and reword your comment about salvation being 'all of God?" If one says it is all of God, one needs to qualify what he means by that in order to avoid confusion.
HP: DHK, I was agreeing with you that you have said "that all should come to repentance and that none should perish." If there is a source to get straight is you that needs to do the straightening, for it was your direct remark I was referring to. Is someone else posting by the name of DHK?
You have been disproven wrong on this text in every conceivable way. You have run out of rational objections and then resorted to completely irrational objections, which also have been shown to be wrong. So now you have changed the topic simply because your view of Matthew 19:17 has been thoroughly exposed and condemned.
Here is how I feel (since you asked). Discussion is futile because it makes no difference how much evidence condemns your position. So, I will simply bow out of this discussion as any discussion with you will only prove to be just as futile.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
FWIW, it was post #132 by DHK that chnaged the course of the discussion. :thumbs: