Matt 18 and Forgiveness Revoked

[steaver]

To all of you here who think you can be disobedient and heavenbound, God has a few words for you:

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

So are you self-righteous brother? Or does the blood of Christ clean up your filthy rags? Personally, I am righteous only because God has declared it so through Christ. If I do any good it is only because Jesus lives through me. I deserve the lake of fire.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

... continued

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


What??? "Do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life"??? Heresy!!! Salvation by works!

Those who are saved do His commandments. Not the letter of the law, no one can keep it, but the spirit of the law. Love thy neighbour as thyself and ye do well and fulfill the commandments of the law.

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."(Gal 5:14)

"If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do wellJames 2:8)

"For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."(Romans 13:9)

Did you take note of what Paul said..." and if there be any other commandment , it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

If you don't love then you are not saved.

God Bless!

 

[Avshalom]

Hi Steaver,

The fact that salvation is a free gift does not mean that there are no condition to receive it, otherwise all would be saved or God saves people arbitrarily.

The problem is that many seem to confuse the ground of our salvation, which is the atonement of Christ, with the conditions required to receive it. Yes, there are clear conditions to receive salvation and everyone is invited under the same terms.

Meeting these conditions does not mean you are saved by works. Indeed, God expects us to do some things before he receives us. One example: "get out from her... touch not the unclean thing and I will receive you".

Allow me to quote one interesting passage from Revelation (from you bible, KJV)

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

"Do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life"!!! This must sound downright cultic to you

Blessings

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Tazman:
Does God not tie in our forgiveness of others with his forgiveness of us?

Yes or No?

Originally posted by Pastor_Bob:

Absolutely. But nowhere in the Word of God does it suggest that sins forgiven can be or will be revoked by God.

I just love it when we bring up a text (like Matt 18 in this case) and then someone posts an "exact negation of the text in review" as "Their preferred view".

As Christians we can "most easily see" that our view is in error when we have to make statements like the one above as we read a text that says "just the opposite".

Note that in Matt 18 you have "forgiveness revoked" in parable form. In Ezek 18 you have the SAME teaching outside of parable form! It is as if God was trying to "remove all excuses".

Notes about the "details" in Matt 18

Lets deal with "the obvious" points made IN The text of Matt 18.

#1. The forgiveness shown OTHERS was to be based on the real forgiveness ALREADY received from God.

#2. The REAL forgiveness received from God was regarding the unpayable DEBT that each one owes to God. The debt of sin.

#3. NO one can be SAVED but UNFORGIVEN.

#4. THIS IS an illustration of "THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN" according to Christ.

#5. This is the SAME instruction we see in Matt 6 in the Lord's prayer "FORGIVE us our debts AS WE forgive others".

#6. The DEBT OWED to the King of kings is RETURNED back to the one who OWED the debt as "payment due" and they are put into torment paying that huge debt of sin! This pay-your-own-debt-of-sin idea is never called "The saved relationship with God" in all of scripture.

#7. Christ says to his own followers "So shall My Heavenly Father do to EACH ONE OF YOU IF you do not forgive...". Christ makes the same point that He made in Matt 6 "For IF YOU do not FORGIVE... then neither will..."

#8. The Cahpter of Matt 18 DOES NOT end in vs 22 just saying “YES you should forgive lots o time -- but if you do not nothing bad will happen to you” -- the way many “wish” the chapter had ended.

Matt 18 is a clear, irrefutable and obvious case of "forgiveness REVOKED".

The response of those what believe in OSAS will often list reasons why this story "should not be in scripture" (as it were) -- but they never actually address the devastating "details" in Matt 18 regarding OSAS.

That is instructive.


In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew 18
21 Then Peter came and said to Him, ""Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?''
22 Jesus said to him, ""I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.


Matt 18:23-35 Forgiveness revoked – as opposed to blaming God for not “preserving us”.

Matt 18
23 ""For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 ""When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25 ""But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.

Here we see that the Kingdom of Heaven is the context – and the servant “owes” in that eternal reality – a debt that is far greater than he and all his substance could ever repay. He is judged as owing the debt and payment is demanded.

So it is for all of humanity – the law points to the debt owed (Romans 6) the “Wages of Sin is death.” And Rev 20 – 21 tells us that this is in fact the suffering and torment of the 2nd death – eternal.

Matt 18
26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.

Though the slave undervalues his own debt and over-values his own ability to “repay” – the Lord has mercy on him anyway and “Forgives the Debt” – full and complete forgiveness in the scenario regarding “the Kingdom of Heaven”. This is key to the Arminian point.

But (as Christ points out in His model prayer of Matt 6) those who Are forgiven are under obligation to forgive others.

28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.

Here the case of “the Forgiven” slave is that HE is “unwilling” to show forgiveness to others even though he HAS been forgiven.

Exercising his free-will he is “Unwilling” to give to others that SAME sense of mercy and compassion that HAS been shown him by his Lord.

Matt 18
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

The Lord does not show any reservation about the full and complete forgiveness that HE gave to His servant.

Matt 18
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'

Here is the direct appeal to the same Point we see Christ making in Matt 6 “Forgive us OUR debts AS WE forgive our debtors” and then adds “For if you do NOT forgive others then…” well you know what He said.

Matt 18
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

Clearly – “forgiveness revoked” with FULL payment made now – by the slave!
.

Matt 18
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

Here many shout “OH NO He will NOT!”. They think that “once forgiven ALWAYS forgiven” applies even to those in rebellion. (A good 4-point Calvinist POV by the way).

Here Christ charges that the point is valid for Christians. He argues that WE have been forgiven by our heavenly Father – and that HE will revoke Our forgiveness just as we see in this story and just as Christ claimed in Matt 6 If “we” do not persevere in showing the Same kind regard for forgiving our brothers.

Rather than God blaming Himself for our lack of perseverance or God claiming that HE failed to preserve us – HE charges that WE are under obligation to obey as He directs or be faced with “forgiveness revoked” just as it is really described in this chapter.

 

[Hope of Glory]

To be honest, I will never understand how anybody can believe this OSAS stuff with so many if's and warnings in the Bible addressed to believers. God never said salvation unconditional, at least not in my bible.

First of all, there are many admonitions given to believers, but it is not about loss of spiritual salvation, but loss of rewards.

Acts 16:31 simply states, "Believe [aorist; punctiliar] and you will [indicative; not "may be"] be saved."

To beleive that your salvation has to be maintained or can be lost contradicts this verse (not to mention countless others that talk about the security of the believer).

Do you believe there are contradictions in Scripture?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by steaver:
You speak the truth here but have missed the point of Romans 8. Those saved "walk after the Spirit"(verse 1).

The text keeps saying "IF by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh THEN you are the children of God" AS IF that is a conditional status.

Paul then makes the exact same point "crystal clear" in Romans 11

Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Impossible to miss.

The choice is clear - either you walk by the Spirit and choose to remain ON in faith - you "too will be cast out". In fact Paul use the term "fear" stating that those IN the vine of Christ "SHOULD" fear.

Amazing!!

2 Tim 2
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

"Again" Paul shows us the choice - and states that we MUST choose to persevere IN obedience IN faith --

Steaver said
There is no choice offered to the believer here. Either you walk after the Spirit which means you have been saved or you walk after the flesh which means you have yet to be saved.

That language is not in Romans 8, is not in Romans 11 is not in Matt 18 is not in 2Tim 2 is not in any of the key places that address this issue of persevering.

IF your point COULD have been argued in Matt 18 THEN it would have said to the unforgiving slave "SINCE you were never forgiven to BEGIN WITH you had NO BASIS to forgive others. There is no surprise here it is simply NO CHANGE from the current or prior conditions. This is just a normal day like every other day for the unforgiven!"

COULD such a "rework of the text" be accomplished then the argument you try to make in Romans 8 could work in Matt 18.

But in Romans 8 ITSELF it does NOT say "Those who do NOT walk by the Spirit were never at any time the children of God" -- to insert it into the text is eisgesis.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

It appears that there are some people here claiming that the texts quoted above "do not exist".

 

[BobRyan]

Steaver said -
There are many who i would not forgive until the Spirit indwelled me. One cannot forgive "from the heart" without God in that heart.

The parable is a little deeper than trying to declare a servant a saint. Remember, once one is converted they are no longer called a servant but a friend, a brother, a child of God, a saint! Praise His wonderful name!

Hmm - so the Lord really DID NOT forgive and DID NOT save the one in the parable so HOW is that like the "Kingdom of heaven"? and HOW does that SHOW Peter a reason to forgive others AND HOW is that applicable to YOU such that decades AFTER the cross the Gospel Christian authors can present this teaching of Christ to us -- as Christ can says to Peter and those with him "SO Shall My Father do to each one of YOU IF YOU do not...".

In the parable the point is NEVER made that the Servant HAD NO BASIS for forgiveness. RAther the opposite point is argued. The POINT is that he had EVERY REASON to treat OTHERS in the same graceful forgiving merciful way HIS OWN DEBT was truly, really, completely, wonderfully FORGIVEN!!

A more obvious point could not be found in the parable!!

To deny the very basics of the parable is to eisegete in favor of tradition in this case.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Allow me to quote one interesting passage from Revelation (from you bible, KJV)

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

"Do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life"!!! This must sound downright cultic to you

Blessings

Hi brother! You already posted these and i responded. Did you read what I wrote?

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

The text keeps saying "IF by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh THEN you are the children of God" AS IF that is a conditional status.

Correct Bob. It is an examination. IF you are lead by the Spirit THEN you are a child of God. It is not a "do this" and you become a child of God. It is a "if you do this" then you know you HAVE BEEN saved...past tense...and are a child of God.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Hmm - so the Lord really DID NOT forgive and DID NOT save the one in the parable....

No. He did forgive the servant a debt, but it does not say that He saved the man from hellfire. That is were you fall into misinterpretation.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"(Eph 2:8)

Forgiving others does not save. Forgiving is an attribute of the saved. Read Eph 2:8 carefully. It does not coinside with your theory concerning Matt 18. You will need to abandon your interpretation of it and let the scriptures determine what it teaches.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

The POINT is that he had EVERY REASON to treat OTHERS in the same graceful forgiving merciful way HIS OWN DEBT was truly, really, completely, wonderfully FORGIVEN!!

"truly, really, completely"?? Not quite according to your position. God was still holding it against him ready to yank it away if he didn't do just as God would do. Remember the words "not of yourselves". It's a "gift" brother.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

The fact that salvation is a free gift does not mean that there are no condition to receive it, otherwise all would be saved or God saves people arbitrarily.

Very true. There is a condition but we know that it is "not of yourselves"(Eph 2:8). So what is it. The father draws through the Word, the Spirit convicts the sinner of sin, the sinner calls on Jesus to forgive him. It kinda goes like this...

"Lord, I have sinned against You and see, as You have shown me, that You have given Jesus your Son as an attonement for my sins. I thank you Lord and willingly recieve your Spirit, your free Gift of eternal life. I have done nothing to deserve such a gift, as your Word states "not of yourselves". There is nothing I could have done to recieve such a gift. Thank you and I praise your wonderful name!"

It is all God. He came to me, convicted me, and saved me. All I did was allow Him to do it. I said ok. God did all the work! Now I believe in Jesus and that is the only condition set forth for salvation. And even that saving faith was given me by God, therefore it is my own only because I was given it freely when I asked for forgiveness. All you have to do is ask.

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

The POINT is that he had EVERY REASON to treat OTHERS in the same graceful forgiving merciful way HIS OWN DEBT was truly, really, completely, wonderfully FORGIVEN!!

Originally posted by steaver:

"truly, really, completely"?? Not quite according to your position. God was still holding it against him ready to yank it away if he didn't do just as God would do.

#1. Christ Himself says "After the Parable" ends "SO shall My Father DO TO each of you" when speaking TO Peter and all those listening.

It does not help your argument to recast this as something I wrote in scripture.

#2. BY arguing that it is God's fault - you have negated your doctrinal POV because you have to admit that this instruction from Christ is true - even if you find a way to downsize it to just "pre-cross truth that we no longer pay attention to " -- it is still true for 4000 years of history -- and so again your view is "blaming God".

You are claiming that SINCE God is holding back the servant is just "doing what God did" (equivocating between NO forgiveness and the loss of OSAS entirely)

Steaver -
Remember the words "not of yourselves". It's a "gift" brother.

That was that "gift of forgiveness" the KING gave the servant who "could not pay". THAT is THE POINT!

Out of that great gratitude for such a massive Gift the Servant SHOULD respond to his brothers -- that IS The POINT!!

Only by watering DOWN that gift to something less than nothing can you argue that the servant is just "doing as he has been shown" when HE TOO refuses to forgive!

I am not sure whether you are making my case or yours.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmm - so the Lord really DID NOT forgive and DID NOT save the one in the parable....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No. He did forgive the servant a debt, but it does not say that He saved the man from hellfire. That is were you fall into misinterpretation.

You are grasping at straws.

The Context "Shows" that Christ says explicitly that THIS parable illustrates the "Actual" Kingdom of Heaven!

The context "shows" that this is in direct response to PETER's request about really forgiving others.

Christ is saying TO PETER that HE should forgive others as abundantly AS HE has BEEN FORGIVEN by God!

The effort to twist this around just to save OSAS is not worth the trouble. Let OSAS stand or fall on its own. Don't try to change the text.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

"And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses."(Matt 18:34-35)

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves : it is the gift of God:"(Eph 2:8)

Either it is ye who saves you or it is " not of yourselves ". You have a delima brother?

God Bless!

 

[Tazman]

PREACH ON THAT!!!

Amen!

It's horrible that a certain theology can make a person actually deny Jesus' direct teaching.

It's simple the Father is the Master. Fear of tradition of the elders

I have friends that believe OSAS, but even they admitted that the "Master" in the Parable is the "Father"

Grace & Peace

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by steaver:
"And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses."(Matt 18:34-35)

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves : it is the gift of God:"(Eph 2:8)

Either it is ye who saves you or it is " not of yourselves ". You have a delima brother?

I am not the one speaking in Matt 18:34-35 - but our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ IS speaking there. I say we "listen to HIM"!

I am not the one who wrote Romans 11:18-21
Paul did at the direction of the Holy Spirit.

Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

I am also not the one who wrote Eph 2:8 - Paul did at the direction of the Holy Spirit.


If you must choose between Paul and Christ - or choose between Paul in Romans 11:17-21 and Paul in Eph 2:8 then you have "construed too much" out of Eph 2:8 so that it appears to differ with the rest of scripture.

The Text of Matt 18 is "very clear" and it is addressed TO PETER and those who along with him - are following Christ - the true Messiah!

#1. There is "no escaping" the fact that it IS an illustration of "The Kingdom of Heaven".

#2. There is "no escaping" the fact that the summary words of Christ in that instance are OUTSIDE the PARABLE!!

#3. There is "no escaping" the fact that this teaching OF CHRIST is written more than a decade AFTER the cross in obedience to Christ's command to "GO and teach others ALL that I TAUGHT YOU" in Matt 28.

#4. There is "no escaping" the fact that Christ says to Peter "REAL FORGIVENESS" given to him by God demands that we TOO show that same spirit of forgiveness to others!

If you seek to find fault with the REAL Gospel forgiveness within the Kingdom of Heaven that is RECEIVED FROM GOD -- then you have room to justify LACK of forgiveness toward others. No such "open door" is left for the reader in the Words of Christ.

His argument to Peter IN FAVOR of forgiveness is never "Well God did not actually forgive you so don't worry about having to forgive others"!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

PREACH ON THAT!!!

Amen!

It's horrible that a certain theology can make a person actually deny Jesus' direct teaching.

It's simple the Father is the Master. Fear of tradition of the elders

I have friends that believe OSAS, but even they admitted that the "Master" in the Parable is the "Father"

Grace & Peace

Are ye finding it difficult to deal with "not of yourselves"(Eph 2:8)?

When you are able to coinside Eph 2:8 with all of the "I must do's" you have compiled let me know!

You see brother, the only condition of any "gift" offered is that the recepient accept it. That is why it is called a free gift ! It is so simple that it is difficult for the wise to comprehend it. My fifth and sixth graders have no problem understanding "free gift". Why do many of the "learned" struggle with such wonderful grace and mercy? Love ya brother!

God Bless!