Matt 18 and Forgiveness Revoked

[BobRyan]

Via the "atonement model" we have the "Atoning Sacrifice" at the cross for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the "Whole world".

But some see this more along the lines of the grocery store model where the transaction at the cross was done without the Lev 16 concepts of atonement. That model has no place for the texts just mentioned about sins being applied to the lost in real life today!

 

[steaver]

I read Lev 16 and I don't understand what you are speaking of concerning it and a grocery store model.

If the sin debt of All is paid in full at the cross then how does that payment become of no effect to an individual?

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnationMark 3:28-29)

All sins shall be forgiven except blaspheme against the Holy Ghost. He says "unto the sons of men", He does not make any distinction between believers and non-believers.

Should we make a distinction? If so, why?

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by steaver:
All sins shall be forgiven except blaspheme against the Holy Ghost. He says "unto the sons of men", He does not make any distinction between believers and non-believers.

Should we make a distinction? If so, why?

The answer was already given in this list of texts that you are bypassing

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3579/15.html#000215

And as already pointed out (as well)

What about Acts 2 are they ALL SAVED as lost sinners not standing in debt owing a great debt of sin??

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Acts 2
36 ""Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ this Jesus whom you crucified.''
37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "" Brethren, what shall we do?''
38 Peter said to them, "" Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 ""For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.''
40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "" Be saved from this perverse generation!''
41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

They are convicted of their guilt - they are told to "repent" in order to receive forgiveness JUST as we see in 1John 1:9.
</font>[/QUOTE]God always makes a "distinction" between the saved, the forgiven and the unsaved as the unforgiven who are "condemned under the Law that shows that ALL have sinned" as the list points out.

God never says "Do not confess your sins - I forgive you anyway". Not to the saved and not to the lost. So in that respect "there is no distinction".

God never says to the lost "Do not repent you have no sins they are all taken away so don't think about them".

God never says to the saved who sin "Do not repent - your sins are already taken away and since you already believe just don't think about it except to keep saying thanks".

There is no way to "box God in" as if this is what He "should have said" and as if the texts in that list above "no longer exist".

That means that the "unforgiven" problem Christ points out in Matt 18 with the servant that COMES TO THE KING having a great debt (of sin) is "REAL".

That means that when he IS FORGIVEN the solution is "REAL salvation" REAL Gospel forgiveness.

That means when the debt is RETURNED (forgiveness REVOKED) the problem is REAL and is NOT the problem that the servant had WHILE forgiven!

Just stating the obvious for now.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

As we review it we see that "your model" does NOT allow for the unforgiven, lost "debt-owing servant" in Matt 18 to exist. He can not come to the king saying that he HAS a great debt nor can the king accuse him of such nor ask him to pay it. (in your model).

Once forgiven you model insists "NO change from the first condition when he came to the King unforgiven".

So your model does not allow for that forgiveness being any CHANGE at all - story not withstanding.

Then when the king passes judgement and RETURNS the debt - your "everybody is forgiven whether lost or saved" does NOT allow for the RETURN of anything. It says "again" --- "NO CHANGE".

Your model seems to contradict every aspect of Christ's Word in Matt 18.

Does that not bother you at all??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Bob...

You have supposed that the Matt 18 parable shows the servant coming to the King "already forgiven but in a pointless kind of way that leaves him unsaved". Never is that point made in the parable. You have "inserted it".

You have inserted the part about the servant "coming to the king". The parable states that the servant was "brought unto him". What I have proposed is that the servant was learning of the forgiveness(the kingdom of heaven coming upon him, the good news). The servant was "brought unto the king and was told he was forgiven his sins". You will find this on page 14, Feb 12...

Steaver...

The world has been forgiven at the cross (1 Jo 2:2, Jo 1:29) This is part of the message of the kingdom of heaven. The servant represents those brought to the knowledge of Jesus' forgiveness yet refuses to understand/believe and be converted as when Jesus explains the kingdom of heaven through the parable of the four soils. The servant has been forgiven, yet the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven (Matt 12:31). And these shall not be saved.

Bob...

The death of Christ PROVIDES for that promise of forgiveness but the conditions listed in 1John 1:9 are real - there is no "sticking God in a box:" and getting out of the Confess condition or the "Repent" condition as listed above.

Show me were in the parable the servant declares his repentance or shows repentance in his words or actions.

The king demanded payment from the servant. So in your model, people are "brought" before Jesus here on earth (spiritually I guess) and Jesus demands payment for their sin. Then the person only asked for time to pay the debt (does not asked for forgiveness, repent, or place faith in Christ) and then Jesus forgives the sin even though the person does not repent or believe, He just saves the person? Is this your model I am to embrace?

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by steaver:
All sins shall be forgiven except blaspheme against the Holy Ghost. He says "unto the sons of men", He does not make any distinction between believers and non-believers.

Should we make a distinction? If so, why?

The answer was already given in this list of texts that you are bypassing

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3579/15.html#000215

And as already pointed out (as well)

What about Acts 2 are they ALL SAVED as lost sinners not standing in debt owing a great debt of sin??

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Acts 2
36 ""Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ this Jesus whom you crucified.''
37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "" Brethren, what shall we do?''
38 Peter said to them, "" Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 ""For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.''
40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "" Be saved from this perverse generation!''
41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

They are convicted of their guilt - they are told to "repent" in order to receive forgiveness JUST as we see in 1John 1:9.
</font>[/QUOTE]God always makes a "distinction" between the saved, the forgiven and the unsaved as the unforgiven who are "condemned under the Law that shows that ALL have sinned" as the list points out.

God never says "Do not confess your sins - I forgive you anyway". Not to the saved and not to the lost. So in that respect "there is no distinction".

God never says to the lost "Do not repent you have no sins they are all taken away so don't think about them".

God never says to the saved who sin "Do not repent - your sins are already taken away and since you already believe just don't think about it except to keep saying thanks".

There is no way to "box God in" as if this is what He "should have said" and as if the texts in that list above "no longer exist".

That means that the "unforgiven" problem Christ points out in Matt 18 with the servant that COMES TO THE KING having a great debt (of sin) is "REAL".

That means that when he IS FORGIVEN the solution is "REAL salvation" REAL Gospel forgiveness.

That means when the debt is RETURNED (forgiveness REVOKED) the problem is REAL and is NOT the problem that the servant had WHILE forgiven!

Just stating the obvious for now.
[/QUOTE]

 

[BobRyan]

Show me were in the parable the servant declares his repentance or shows repentance in his words or actions.

#1 The parable makes a great point of saying the servant WAS NOT foriven and NEEDED it. In fact it goes into detail about the judgement and the servant OWING.

You have no place at all in your traditions for the EXPLICIT detail in the text.

#2. The context for the parable is Peter asking about those who DO ask for forgiveness and how often they should be forgiven. In the example the servant IS fully submitted to the king not only is he not seeking GREATER debt he is seeking to pay the debt he owes This is the mindet of the one who turns from rebellion. Repentance "enacted".

I find it interesting that you need to ignore the detail that IS highlighted in the text and focus on the one that is not mentioned.

AS IF Christ meant to talk to Peter about NO repentance needed by the one the king judged as OWING a great debt and still unforgiven.

 

[steaver]

#2. The context for the parable is Peter asking about those who DO ask for forgiveness and how often they should be forgiven. In the example the servant IS fully submitted to the king not only is he not seeking GREATER debt he is seeking to pay the debt he owes This is the mindet of the one who turns from rebellion. Repentance "enacted".

No Bob, Firstly Peter ask no such question. There is no such "asking for forgiveness" mentioned at all. Peter ask only how many times he should forgive those who sin against him. Forgiveness of others is commanded REGARDLESS of whether or not the offender asked for it. You surely already know this brother. Example after example of this is throughout the scriptures. Stephen and Christ, as you have already mentioned before, come to mind.

Secondly the servant NEVER asked for forgiveness, he asked for time to repay.

Thirdly, why didn't the king forgive the servant more than once as was told Peter he should forgive infinitely, is this not a point made to Peter followed by a "therefore" parable?

Fourthly the servant is not portrayed as repentant, he is portrayed as only having a debt that is owed and he is begging for his life. This is what most crooks do when they are confronted with the charges before them. When they are up against the wall they beg!

Fifthly the servant declares his UNREPENTANT heart by seeking out a fellow servant and grasping him by the throat. This is hardly the picture of a repentant man!

So we have no asking, no repentance, no belief, no fruits, and I forgot to mention no baptism, and yet you come away from the parable as declaring the servant saved! These are all things you teach a person MUST DO to be saved yet you let them all slide in this case so you can support a man made myth.

Does that not bother you at all!

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

Sorry to debunk your position so quickly -

But "in the details" of Christ's example the FELLOW slave DOES plead for forgiveness! It is in that context that Christ argues Peter should forgive AS he was forgiven. You have been arguing agains this concept of repentance and seeking forgiveness consistently yet we SEE it in the example Christ gives AND we see it in Acts 2 AND in 1John 1:9. Texts obviously dealing with BOTH the unsaved AND the saved.

In the "details of Christ's example" the slave STARTS OUT unforgiven. You do not allow for that - and simply reject it.

Om the "details of Christ's example" when the slave TURNS to the king and seeks to make restitution (repentance, confession and seeking reconciliation) the King PROVIDES grace, mercy and gospel forgiveness as in "The Gospel of the Kingdom".

The King says the slave is NOW forgiven as a result of that encounter with the king. HE never says "I already forgave you long ago - you have not owed a thing for all these years - you just THOUGHT you owed!".

Your views are rejected in this parable at each point of detail in the parable.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Bob...

But "in the details" of Christ's example the FELLOW slave DOES plead for forgiveness!

God's Word...

The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

I guess you need that leap to keep your myth alive.

Om the "details of Christ's example" when the slave TURNS to the king and seeks to make restitution (repentance, confession and seeking reconciliation)

Bob, why do you keep ignoring the "details"? The slave does not TURN to the king. The slave is BROUGHT unto the king. Nobody goes looking for God to pay a debt they cannot pay. God comes looking for you. Asking for patience and more time to pay the debt is not repentance. If this were so it would read very simply..."Lord I have sinned against you a great debt that I can never repay, would you please forgive me?"

Bob...

In the "details of Christ's example" the slave STARTS OUT unforgiven. You do not allow for that - and simply reject it.

I covered this already. He STARTS OUT as ignorant as us all concerning our debt of sin and the payment that has been made by Christ for that sin. He then learns that he is forgiven by grace alone, nothing he has done to deserve it. The only thing left is faith. He shows his unregenerated heart by his unrepentant actions.

Now by the way. How do you think this servant got saved without getting baptized?

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

You keep going down this blind alley and I don't see how it helps your view at all.

First you state that ALL are forgiven - which is not the start of this parable by any imagination possible.

Then you argue that in full rebellion and apart from any repentance the servant is forgiven. THOUGH the servant seeks to make restitution EXPLICITLY you "ignore it".

THOUGH the servant is being placed in the role of Peter as a warning to Peter not to make the wrong choice AFTER having been forgiven you "ignore it".

Though the Bible says in BOTH Acts 2 and 1John 1:9 "IF we CONFESS He .. forgives" and "REPENT.. for the forgiveness of sin" you "ignore it".

You seek model that has "man fully forgiven in full rebellion and apart from repentance" but the story does not show it - nor does the Bible teach it anywhere.

How is this helping you?

The story does NOT start out by saying to the servant "YOU OWE NOTHING you just THINK you do". So you simply "imagine it".

The Bible shows that under the Gospel of the Kingdom - GOD is "Convicting the WORLD of SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS and JUDGMENT" but you "ignore it".

The story DOES NOT say "Let us wait and see if you forgive others - if you do then I will REALLY forgive you" so you "imagine it".

The story DOES NOT point to any forgiveness apart from the particular act of the King on an individual basis - but you need it so you "imagine it".

The story reprensents the Gospel -

PETER is IN the story as the servant.

GOD is in the story as the KING.

GOD is showing Peter that as the true forgiven servant who HAS been convicted of REAL sin and HAS been brought to realize his own NEED and HAS been submitted to God seeking reconciliation - that it is HE who has been shown mercy and should show others mercy as well.

I can't imagine how you are getting every detail in the story out of context!

 

[steaver]

Now by the way. How do you think this servant got saved without getting baptized?

 

[BobRyan]

Christ said "The Kingdom of heaven may be compared to...".

Christ is speaking before the Cross, Anna, Eli, Samuel, Enoch, Elijah, Moses, David, Josiah, Jacob etc -- none of them "Baptized".

1. Christ is right to use the story as an illustration of Gospel forgiveness within the "Gospel of the Kingdom" the ONE Gospel for all time!

2. Christ is RIGHT to show that the servant is NOT forgiven when he comes before the king and is condemned by law. The SAME law already shown here to condemn "ALL" under sin even AFTER the Cross according to Romans 3 and Galatians 3.

3. Christ is RIGHT to point out that in that INDIVIDUAL transaction with the King MERCY IS shown and the Servant IS forgiven.

4. Christ is RIGHT to point out that JUST AS the servant was REALLY forgiven - SO that servant is expected to show mercy. (Thus Making the argument FOR the REALLY forgiven PETER to REALLY forgive others as it turns out).

5. Christ is RIGHT to point out that when that servant fails to show the mercy to other that HE REALLY received the KING expresses anger and says "I forgave you AS YOU should forgive others".

6. Christ is RIGHT to say to Peter and all those with him in answer to Peter's question "SO shall My Father do to EACH on of you IF YOU do not ..."

You seem to struggle with each of these "details" in the text so far.

Surely you notice that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Bob...

Christ is speaking before the Cross, Anna, Eli, Samuel, Enoch, Elijah, Moses, David, Josiah, Jacob etc -- none of them "Baptized".

What are you saying brother, that baptism is a new requirement for salvation only for those post cross? Those pre-cross did not need to be baptized for salvation?

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

Peter says "According to that Baptism saves NOT the magical touching of water to the flesh but the APPEAL to God for a clean conscience".

I believe in baptism of BELIEVERS. Romans 10 points to the fact that one FIRST believes and then they are saved -- no mention of "must be baptized to GET saved or BECOME born again or become a believer".

I do not believe in "baptismal regeneration" or magic sacramental powers with the ability to "Mark the soul"

But this point digresses from the six key points listed above - explicitly stated in the text. Six points that you seem to have no room for in your views of Matt 18.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Bob...

I believe in baptism of BELIEVERS. Romans 10 points to the fact that one FIRST believes and then they are saved -- no mention of "must be baptized to GET saved or BECOME born again or become a believer".

I don't follow what you are saying. You say "one FIRST believes" and then go on to say "no mention of must....become a believer". This makes no sense.

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

I am trying to point out that you do not "get Baptized to BECOME a believer" you become a believer AND THEN get baptized.

 

[steaver]

I understand that part and we agree on it. I always thought you was one of those who teach that you get into Christ only through baptism. My mistake, it must have been somebody else, sorry!

I don't understand how one FIRST believes without becoming a Believer as you suggest about Romans 10 above.

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

If you must first be an "unbelieving believer" to then "believe" then you have a contradiction of terms!

There is no such thing as an "unbelieving believer".

That is why we see that sequence of "belief" and then "savlation" in Romans 10.

It is the drawing of God that ENABLES the unbeliever to choose to believe and BECOME a believer.

In the Matt 18 story we see the servant - unforgiven but under conviction by the King and seeking restitution after THAT comes the full forgiveness and pardon by the King.

In Christ,

Bob