Matt 18 and Matt 6 Disprove OSAS

[BobRyan]

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.


There is a long list of other texts that disprove OSAS in the same way - such as those we find in Ezek 18.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Revmitchell]

Do you know what is better than OSAS discussions?










Anything!

 

[BobRyan]

Are the Bible "details" on the subject of security of so little interest that they must be avoided at all costs??

Does the fact that the man-made tradition of OSAS - does not survive these texts - not matter to those who might cling to tradition over the Bible?

 

[Revmitchell]

Or maybe it is time to move on as it has been talked to death.

 

[BobRyan]

So then - having no answer for the Bible point raised on such an important subject as the assurance of salvation - lets cling to tradition "anyway" and move on to some other subject??

Really??

That flies in some congregations?

 

[Revmitchell]

So then - having no answer for the Bible point raised on such an important subject as the assurance of salvation - lets cling to tradition "anyway" and move on to some other subject??

Really??

That flies in some congregations?

Yes that's it you got me. Since you have insisted its importance well then...I must not have an answer. And of course tradition must be the reason. :tonofbricks:


Maybe you can find something else to worry about.:thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

Everyone who has ever posted on the subject of OSAS has admitted that the man-made tradition of OSAS has no allowance for "Full forgiveness being revoked". They will often say "no such thing as forgiveness revoked" -- we read that post from them all the time.

Arminians have long since admitted that "forgiveness revoked" is in fact what can happen if you make the wrong choice after being fully forgiven.

Who is right?

Is it really so difficult to figure out after you read the actual Bible??

hmmm..

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.


There is a long list of other texts that disprove OSAS in the same way - such as those we find in Ezek 18.

----------------

Ok so it is not too difficult to see that sure enough this thing that OSAS claims can never exist - is actually in the text.

Solution???

"Let's not talk about that text and cling to our tradition anyway".

Really?

In a number of posts here with no Bible response at all in them RM finally responds with

Yes that's it you got me.

I think we were not supposed to believe he is serious in that last post -- but based on his determined set of posts here that do not address the Bible details raised at all... well then one can wonder if maybe actions speak louder than ... well I guess in this case they both agree.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Arminians have long since admitted that "forgiveness revoked" is in fact what can happen if you make the wrong choice after being fully forgiven.

Bob, this doctrine is yours alone. You invented it, or maybe you allowed satan to get into your head on this one. You have never given one commentary were anyone ever declared a saint's forgiveness revoked - ever. And I don't believe any exist - sure isn't found in the scriptures.

Can you provide any commentary on Matt 18 which supports your doctrine??

 

[Amy.G]

Arminians have long since admitted that "forgiveness revoked" is in fact what can happen if you make the wrong choice after being fully forgiven.

If one is "fully" forgiven, how can he then owe a debt that isn't there?

I would like to know what this "wrong choice" is. What choice specifically does one make that results in "forgiveness revoked"? If we don't know what it is, how can we avoid it?


You have made a doctrine out of one passage without comparing it to the many others that contradict your interpretation.

I will never leave nor forsake you.

You have been sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption.

No one can snatch them out of My hand.

All those the Father has given Me I will not lose one.

I will remove your sin as far as the east is from the west.


Does God contradict Himself? Or are you misinterpreting ONE passage?

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.


There is a long list of other texts that disprove OSAS in the same way - such as those we find in Ezek 18.

And of course the counterfactual Pontifical response to the Bible details would be??

Bob, this doctrine is yours alone. You invented it,

Yes that would be the kind of non-factual response as if Steaver never heard of John Wesley or a Methodist.

But more significantly Steaver's response to the "Bible details" is that only I need to pay attention to them -(Perhaps once again Steaver thinks this is yet another instance of me writing scripture so he need not bother with the "Bible details" so opposed to his traditions).

Gaming the point is not the solution to 'every Bible problem for OSAS" as it turns out.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

hmmm..

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.


There is a long list of other texts that disprove OSAS in the same way - such as those we find in Ezek 18.

If one is "fully" forgiven, how can he then owe a debt that isn't there?

Very good question - how can these Bible texts be true if Calvinism's view of forgiveness is correct?

I agree - it exposes a flaw in both Calvinism's OSAS doctrine and their view of the Bible teaching on Atonement and forgiveness.

I would like to know what this "wrong choice" is.

So then you are saying that in the two texts above - you see Jesus mention no wrong action no wrong choice?

Really??

I did not think that would be the hard part.

Maybe I missed where the difficulty is on that point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[evangelist-7]

Going way beyond your 2 fav references ... there are multitudes of passages that kill OSAS!

However, 'tis necessary to be able to read and comprehend the English language,
and most especially Paul's incredibly tactful method of writing to the churches!

Evidently, it's way beyond most of the "50+ years of dumb-downed" American crowd.
Sad, pathetic, you name it ... it applies.

However, I did find one BAC elsewhere who fully understands what Rom 6:15-23 is saying! :thumbsup:
.

 

[BobRyan]

I will never leave nor forsake you.

You have been sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption.

No one can snatch them out of My hand.

All those the Father has given Me I will not lose one.

I will remove your sin as far as the east is from the west.

When the banker shows you his high security vault and says that it is of such a quality that "no one will be able to steal your valuables from this vault" asking you to store them in that vault.

Do you then walk away with the Calvinist idea "If I give him my money I will never be able to get it back "???

That is the "bend' that many Calvinists attempt - using "inference" to say "so my free will will be gone when I am saved".

But as we see in Matt 18 and Matt 6 -- no such thing can be "added" into the texts that you quote above.

By contrast every person who believes in OSAS that has ever commented on it here - has agreed that OSAS has no place at all for the Matt 18 and Matt 6 and Ezek 18 teaching on "forgiveness revoked".

And every Arminian I know of has insisted that this Bible doctrine on forgiveness revoked is to be taken seriously - because it is far more 'real' than the man-made traditions of OSAS - that only exists by 'inference'.

Or are you misinterpreting ONE passage?

I am reluctant to call Matt 18, Matt 6 and Ezek 18 "one passage".

In any case even you would have to admit that you are still avoiding the "details" in these chapters because you can't fit them into OSAS.

I could add Romans 11 here and Gal 5:4 "you have fallen from Grace - you have been severed FROM Christ" and John 15:1-8 "Every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit..."...

There is in fact a long list of texts that E7 has posted numerous times.

But I was willing for the sake of focus, clarity and brevity to look at just these two. That way the OSAS people don't have to solve them all to make a good point.

Apparently everyone who has posted so far - has failed to find a solution where OSAS survives the details in these two simple and obvious texts.

To your credit I will agree that in some of the texts you reference you "could infer" the "banker won't give me my money once it is in his vault" solution to come out with OSAS - but that is OSAS by inference and it can be seen to be flawed by the fact that you have to avoid all the OSAS debunking Bible texts to hold on to that line of "inference".

Think about this - what person living in the dark ages could not reject the Protestant arguments - if they simply clung to tradition and inference over the Bible details that showed a given tradition to be in error?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[OldRegular]

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.


There is a long list of other texts that disprove OSAS in the same way - such as those we find in Ezek 18.

in Christ,

Bob

And your point is that people are saved by the forgiven enemy rather than the Grace of God. A "novel" doctrine I must admit!

 

[Amy.G]

When the banker shows you his high security vault and says that it is of such a quality that "no one will be able to steal your valuables from this vault" asking you to store them in that vault.

Do you then walk away with the Calvinist idea "If I give him my money I will never be able to get it back "???

That is the worst analogy I have EVER heard!

My sin is not stored in a vault for God to pull out and put it on my account again. It is gone, as far as the east is from the west!

As Hebrews says there is NTHER sacrifice for sin. If your forgiveness revoked doctrine is correct, then once it is revoked there is NO way to be saved! (again) Because IT IS FINISHED!


I would love for you to explain what Jesus meant when He said no one can snatch them out of my hand. Or of all the Father has given Me, I will lose NONE! Can you do that please?

 

[steaver]

Yes that would be the kind of non-factual response as if Steaver never heard of John Wesley or a Methodist.

But more significantly Steaver's response to the "Bible details" is that only I need to pay attention to them -(Perhaps once again Steaver thinks this is yet another instance of me writing scripture so he need not bother with the "Bible details" so opposed to his traditions).

Gaming the point is not the solution to 'every Bible problem for OSAS" as it turns out.

in Christ,

Bob

Looks like another bob quote. I asked for commentary from another source which talks about forgiveness revoked using Matt 18. Do you have any??

 

[OldRegular]

If one is "fully" forgiven, how can he then owe a debt that isn't there?

I would like to know what this "wrong choice" is. What choice specifically does one make that results in "forgiveness revoked"? If we don't know what it is, how can we avoid it?


You have made a doctrine out of one passage without comparing it to the many others that contradict your interpretation.

I will never leave nor forsake you.

You have been sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption.

No one can snatch them out of My hand.

All those the Father has given Me I will not lose one.

I will remove your sin as far as the east is from the west.


Does God contradict Himself? Or are you misinterpreting ONE passage?

Amy,

Ryan and evangelist-7 are really not interested in a rational discussion of the teaching of Scripture regarding the Doctrine of the "Security of the Believer", that God keeps those who belong to Him. I cannot get in their heads but it seems that they are:

1. Deliberately trying to sow dissension on this Forum.
2. They are so insecure in their faith they are looking for help!

In either case above I submit their help can only come from God. I recommend they study the following:

Psalms 121:1-8, KJV
1. I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.
2. My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth.
3. He will not suffer thy foot to be moved: he that keepeth thee will not slumber.
4. Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep.
5. The LORD is thy keeper: the LORD is thy shade upon thy right hand.
6. The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night.
7. The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul.
8. The LORD shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore.

 

[OldRegular]

That is the worst analogy I have EVER heard!

My sin is not stored in a vault for God to pull out and put it on my account again. It is gone, as far as the east is from the west!

As Hebrews says there is NTHER sacrifice for sin. If your forgiveness revoked doctrine is correct, then once it is revoked there is NO way to be saved! (again) Because IT IS FINISHED!


I would love for you to explain what Jesus meant when He said no one can snatch them out of my hand. Or of all the Father has given Me, I will lose NONE! Can you do that please?

Amy,

You are correct. A person can be saved only as many times as Jesus Christ died and that is ONCE. I believe that Scripture teaches that God keeps those whom HE has saved. But if HE can't then those who lose their salvation have lost it for ever. Ryan and evangelist-7 should take comfort from that.

 

[Amy.G]

I wonder if Bob and & 7 ever witness? I wonder if they quote John 3:16? I wonder if they say... For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life unless he sins and then FORGIVENESS REVOKED!

 

[OldRegular]

Bob, You and your clone, evangelist-7, post Scripture demanding a response but neither of you will respond to Scripture posted by others, instead you spew a tall tale about "bankers and money".

The following Scripture prove that both you and evangelist-7 are absolutely wrong. Why not demonstrate to the

"50+ years of dumb-downed" American crowd.

that Jesus Christ misspoke when He said the following:

John 10:22-29;
22. And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23. And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon’s porch.
24. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

You should pay particular and prayerful attention to the applicability of Verses 26 and 27:

26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And then once you have considered fully what Jesus Christ is saying to you two in those verses you should prayerfully consider Verses 28 and 29:

28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.