OK - I guess this your way of saying you do not see how OSAS survives the Lord's Prayer Matt 6 and the teaching of Christ in Matt 18.... so you want to talk about "something else".
Those two passages say absolutely nothing about a believer losing his/her salvation because they do not forgive someone. It says that "God will not forgive us". So we have a conflict in Scripture,
you say, since that universally known verse of Scripture John 3:16 states:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Everlasting life is everlasting life. It does not last until I commit some sin such as failing to forgive some one. Now the passages you present say nothing about the unforgiven one no longer believing in Jesus Christ does it?
Now if a true believer sins against God in any way and fails to confess that sin he will disrupt the fellowship that exists between God and himself but he cannot breech that fellowship. The Apostle John in 1 John 2:1 tells us:
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:. Not only do we have an advocate in Jesus Christ we have the Holy Spirit who seals us, keeps us, until the day of Redemption.
2 Corinthians 1:22.
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Ephesians 1:13.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephhesians 4:30.
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Consider King David, "a man after God's own heart" [Acts 13:22] who sinned grievously against God in his adultery with Bathsheba and the murder of her husband. Are you telling us that David, this man after God's own heart, was no longer saved?
Fine let's see if you have something more than "inference" and can avoid the befuddled Calvinist option in the banker's scenario with the massive inference you will need to prove OSAS.
Sooner or later you will need to pay attention to the Bible details that refute OSAS - instead of "only being willing to discuss" those Bible texts that do not directly contradict the assumptions and inferences of the OSAS tradition.
You can play your silly bankers scenario all you want but it is a silly way to approach Scripture. Perhaps that is your problem!
Jesus Christ is quite clear when he says the following:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
No man means "no man"!
I assume this is your "nice way" of saying "The following scripture proves OSAS to be valid".
Assume what you wish but if you believe your god cannot keep safe those for whom Jesus Christ died then you serve a pathetic god, NOT THE GOD OF THE BIBLE1
At this point we see why someone who believe OSAS would ONLY want to talk about the sheep that "Follow ME" as Christ said and that "hear my voice" (ie listen to the WORD of God and follow what He says).
The only sheep that Jesus Christ has are those who know His voice and follow Him!
By contrast - in the Matt 18 and Matt 6 we have the saved saints, the fully forgiven who at some point (after years or months) DO NOT follow what God says - even though they have been fully forgiven.
So while they were in a condition where they WERE listening and following - at some point they do ... what Matt 18 SAYS they do to make a wrong choice.
Consider that passage of Scripture that you parrot: [You really need to get a complete set of Scripture, all 66 Books.}
Matthew 18:32-35
32. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33. Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34. And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
You are reading something into the parable that is not there. The lord of the servant does not give him over to destruction but to punishment. Any Christian, and by Christian I mean one who is truly saved, understands the misery of a broken fellowship with God. If you would study more than a few "proof texts" you might understand Scripture and sleep well tonight.
Consider what we are told in the following Scripture:
Hebrews 12:4-8
4. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6. For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
God chasten His children when they sin against Him. That is what the master did to the servant in the parable. If one sins against God, does not repent, and seek forgiveness then God will chasten him. If he is not chastened then he better lay awake at night and pray because God says that one is a "bastard" and not a "son"!
So your John 10 text does not explicitly even deal with that Matt 18, and Matt 6 case. No wonder you want to talk about John 10 "instead".
It is not my John 10 text its is the Word of God. Do not be flippant about the Word of God. That reflects badly on you!
How predictable a solution for OSAS - it is of the form "just ignore the problem".
I ignore nothing except a "smart mouth"!
[/COLOR][/COLOR]Notice what Christ said about the sheep that do listen and that do follow Him - -the faithful ones that continue to be faithful.
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Oops! That last point of Christ is the very "banker's scenario" yhou claim is worthless and not worth mentioning.
It is you who do not listen. There are non so blind as those who will not see. There are non so deaf as those who will not hear. God through the Prophet Isaiah says it thus:
Isaiah 6:9,10
9. And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Jesus Christ repeats this warning in Matthew 13:14, 15
14. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15. For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Given your vast propensity to ignore the Word of God one wonders if Jesus Christ is speaking to you!
I have spent considerable time responding to your diatribe against those who believe that God whom I worship is able to Keep that which I have committed to Him against that Day. The remainder of your post consists of smirking remarks and is not worthy of response. Actually all your posts are nothing but smirking remarks.
Which proves that pulpit pounding and "harrumph!" are not the solution to every Bible detail that debunks OSAS.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
Again the banker's scenario where the robber is said to Not be able to break into the vault and steal the treasure. They very point in the discussion you claimed to be worthless when I brought it up.
Which proves that pulpit pounding and "harrumph!" are not the solution to every Bible detail that debunks OSAS.
I think that everyone should try paying attention to "Bible details" rather than simply ignoring them when OSAS is not surviving the text.
Now i have carefully shown you the flaw in your own OSAS spin and inference in John 10.
So is "now" the point where you are even willing to look at the Bible chapters in the OP??
in Christ,
Bob
