Matthew 13:33 - What is the parable saying?

[J. Jump]

Ann even if you wanted to look at the mustard "tree," it's still in a negative context, because as Jerome pointed out the birds have been allowed to settle in.

The whole context of Matthew 13 is talking about the offer of the kingdom. It starts out as an offer to the nation of Israel, and then after it is rejected it is offered to a new entity. And then it progresses through how the teaching is corrpupted throughout time. So even with it being a "tree" the context still doesn't lend itself to a positive reading.

Further context throughout Scripture supports this.

 

[npetreley]

Here's another reference I found. I was amused to find that a search for "mustard tree" turns up a lot of churches who use the name "mustard tree" as if it's a good thing.

http://www.khouse.org/articles/1994/31/

The Mustard "Tree"

The puzzling character of these parables is no more evident than in the Mustard "Tree." Despite the well-meaning Bible dictionaries that attempt to link this parable to various flora of the Middle East, the common mustard plant grows as a small bush, and is hardly the haven for birds.

Furthermore, the identity of the birds have already been revealed in verse 19 (cf. v.3): the ministers of the "Wicked One!" This seems to portray a view in which the church will grow into something never intended--a monstrosity in which the very ministers of the wicked one will find refuge in its branches! (Doesn't that sound descriptive of some of the activities of the present day? Should we be surprised?)

 

[J. Jump]

This seems to portray a view in which the church will grow into something never intended--a monstrosity in which the very ministers of the wicked one will find refuge in its branches! (Doesn't that sound descriptive of some of the activities of the present day? Should we be surprised?)

What we have to remember is that this is only true as it relates to the message of the kingdom of the heavens. And yes the message of the kingdom of the heavens has been terribly corrupted today and the enemy's plan is being carried out by "ministers" within the church.

 

[skypair]

Ok, a Parable is a teaching using the literal to describe the spiritual...not the other way around. Leaven is yeast... it expands... When you put leaven(yeast) in bread you expand it.

Yup. And the imagery of yeast/leaven is corruption throughout scripture.

Your definition of the KoH is apparently different than mine.
Only the saved are part of the kingdom. That is the way you get in.

That is also not true. The KoH has "tares" in it. It has "birds"/evil ones in it. It has from other parables "foolish virgins," a "guest" that doesn't have a wedding garment and others unwilling to come to the wedding supper, etc. You really need to update your familiarity with Matthew's parables of the kingdom of heaven -- there are about 14 I believe.

Christ is comparing His spiritual kingdom to something that expands...
(Notice the parable right before this one... something small... a mustard seed expands into something big... a tree.)

Yes -- you're speaking here of the image of the church -- mustard seed/tree. But again birds/evil ones make their home in it.

Look at history... it has expanded. It is expanding...
It will encompass the whole globe by the time Christ rules from His earthly throne in the end. And it all started with a small handful....

I would sure be a powerful shame if AC's kingdom did that ... but it will!

skypair

 

[annsni]

OK - Let's look at this logically for a minute. Looking at the mustard seed, the mustard seed is good. It's growing is good. The final result is good, but there are birds that symbolize corruption nesting in it's branches. The tree itself is not corrupted and the corruption can be separated from the tree.

Then we have the tares and the wheat. The wheat is still wheat - it is still good. In the end, the wheat will be separated from the weeds - and the weeds did not corrupt the wheat.

Now we come to the leaven. Leaven mixed into the flour cannot be separated - it's too difficult. It says in the ESV "till it was all leavened" That means that the entire thing would have to be corrupted and none good would be left. Is THAT the message it's giving?

 

[skypair]

What does AC mean?
Is it three measures of false doctrine or three measures of Gentiles and Jews?
Where is barley in the verse?

AntiChrist --- 3 measures of corruption (religious, political, and economic materialism) --- "barley" is not in the parable but here's the way I construe it (hoping not to get off track with the meaning).

Barley is a "common" grain and flour comes from wheat (Mt 13:24-30). In the tribulation, these grains are ground which is what happens to grain taken out of the field right? That is what AC, pretending to be Christ, will do. Then he will sift them making "meal" (IMO) much the way that Jesus told Peter that Satan desired to sift him (The story of Peter's 3 denials is a picture of the tribulation also BTW).

Also, in Rev 6 we see the black horseman weighing wheat and barley showing that mankind (Jew and Gentile) would be a cheap commodity among in Megog/Russia.

I also find barley in the sign miracles of Christ in John. There the boy had 5 barley loaves and 3 fishes representing (IMO) the witnes of the 5 left behind churches and the 2 Jewish witnesses of Rev 11.

So here you have 3 stories confirming tribulation conditions. Two show the number 3 as "tests" -- 3 seem to show barley as representing Gentiles.

skypair

 

[skypair]

In a quick word-study of "leaven", I did find some verses where God called for LEAVENed bread to be used as an offering.

Lev. 7:13 - Besides the cakes, he shall offer for his offering leavened bread with the sacrifice of thanksgiving of his peace offerings.

Lev. 23:17 - Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals; they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.

Amos 4:5 - And offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving with leaven, and proclaim and publish the free offerings: for this liketh you, O ye children of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

So obviously, not all leaven is sinful - or representative of sin.

Annie -- don't you see that God accepts them DESPITE their corruption??? That is EXACTLY what He does with the church. And the "wave offering" is specifically symbolic in the Jewish feast of the coming covenant that the Jews knew as the "new covenant."

Basically it shows that one day God Himself will dwell in sinful but saved men (not women, though. :laugh.

skypair

 

[skypair]

I honestly don't see the leaven in this parable as being bad - I think that needs a lot of reading into it to get that and I just don't see it as being a right interpretation and the fact that all of the commentaries that I read also don't see that makes me think I'm on the right track.

It would probably lighten everyone else's burden if I just gave my own "rundown" on the parables:

1) Sower and seed is actually 4 parables regarding 4 periods of time (this is a separate interpretation from the one that Jesus gives which also applies, BTW).

a) shows Adam. See, Adam was sown by the wayside and the evil one came and plucked him and Eve up and planted them where they didn't belong.

b) the seed in shallow soil is Adam's progeny that had only one "law" (shallow) and couldn't obey that and so, though a line grew up through Seth, it withered for lack of knolwedge of God.

c) the seed in the thorns was post-flood and the cares of Babel were its destruction

d) the seed in good soil is Abraham that grew and prospered.

2) But when the covenant came through Moses, Satan immediately planted his own "priests"/tares among them.

3) The mustard seed is the church that has now grown to where it harbors birds/demons. One important thing to note -- the mustard seed is never seen again (such as in the tribulation). But do you see -- all along God/Christ was trying to grow this "wheat"/Israel in the land/earth and in the end of all these parables, some was gathered to AC's barn and ground to "meal" and some gathered into Christ's barn.

4) The woman with the leaven is the AC religion and the tribulation.

5) The last 4 parables are basically describing Christ's 2nd coming. At His coming, there will be a selecting of the wheat from the tares (living Jews either believers or not). Then the "hidden treasure"/dead OT saints and trib martyrs will be resurrected. Then the "pearl" of Gentile believers converted during the trib. Then the selecting of the living Gentiles per Mt 25 also, the sheep and goats.

skypair

 

[joycebuckner]

"Kingdom of Heaven" is the spiritual of the kingdom of the church. "Leaven is a lump of old dough in a state of fermentation, which makes the bread dough rise. It is vertuallyalways used as a symbol of evil. 3 measures of meal, a common baking quantity equivalent to 1 1/2 gallons. ( GR..saton) Heb..seah) the leaven is not just false profession of the unsaved church members but false doctrines that they will use if allowed in church

 

[npetreley]

Then we have the tares and the wheat. The wheat is still wheat - it is still good. In the end, the wheat will be separated from the weeds - and the weeds did not corrupt the wheat.

Well, technically, it's the field that has been corrupted. Even more technically, the phrase "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field" compares the kingdom to "a man who". So I don't think it makes sense to get that hung up on the details.

 

[Hope of Glory]

What we have to remember is that this is only true as it relates to the message of the kingdom of the heavens. And yes the message of the kingdom of the heavens has been terribly corrupted today and the enemy's plan is being carried out by "ministers" within the church.

Corrupted?

I'd say obscured completely bu the feel-good, "we're all gonna be treated the same", let's fill our pew doctrines that are so prominent in the mega-churches and on TV.

It then permeates the smaller churches that were once sound, just as the evolutionary teaching of man as a dichotomous (as opposed to trichotomous) being has permeated the pulpit.

 

[HankD]

Now we come to the leaven. Leaven mixed into the flour cannot be separated - it's too difficult. It says in the ESV "till it was all leavened" That means that the entire thing would have to be corrupted and none good would be left. Is THAT the message it's giving?

Yes.

HankD

 

[annsni]

Yes.

HankD

So the entire Kingdom of Heaven is corrupted and has to be thrown out. That's what you're saying?

 

[skypair]

So the entire Kingdom of Heaven is corrupted and has to be thrown out. That's what you're saying?

Quick question, Annie --- did you read post #48? Did you give it a thought?

skypair

 

[J. Jump]

So the entire Kingdom of Heaven is corrupted

The kingdom of the heavens itself is not corrupted. The message regarding the kingdom of the heavens has been corrupted. Just as HOG pointed out Christendom today teaches (if they teach of a 1,000-year kingdom at all) that all saved folks will have a positive part in that kingdom.

The kingdom of the heavens is not eternity, as many in Christendom proclaim that it is. And not all saved people will have a place in this coming kingdom, as many in Christendom proclaim.

This theme runs consistent from the OT throughout the NT. Unfortunately the message has been distorted and corrupted so much over the centuries that when one mentions the gospel of the kingdom as it is related in Scripture there are many different responses to the message and very few are positive. But Scripture tells us it would be this way so it comes as no surprise.

The sad part of it is that just as in Jesus' day the so-called "leaders" of the day are the ones that have the biggest part in keeping people in the dark. The birds are comfortably setting up shop in the mustard tree. And in regard to the message of the kingdom Satan's plan is being carried out for him by saved individuals

 

[skypair]

It probably ...

... ought to be noted that in Matthew, the KoH is distinguished from the KoG.

The KoH is the earth -- the KoG is spiritual and mostly the perfect kingdom in heaven above. The KoG will come to earth AFTER the MK, Rev 21. Meanwhile, the KoG is "in us" but is not by observation yet.

skypair

 

[Hope of Glory]

I have heard this delineation before between the KoH and KoG, but I have studied the Scriptures, and in most cases, it seems to be referring to the same thing from a different aspect.

We're told that there will be an earthly Kingdom and a heavenly Kingdom, just as Abraham had two seeds, but I think that in Scriptures they are the same time period, but different. Mainly because the time referred to is of limited duration, and I cannot think of a single instance in which the KoG is referred to in any other way.

However, it does "make sense", although when things "make sense" to us, we need to make sure that they also line up with Scriptures.

Edited to add a couple of thoughts. I have not studied out these thoughts from this aspect, but wanted to throw them out there.

Jesus is the God of the age to come. (Kingdom.)

Jehovah is God the Father.

Could both Kingoms exist simultaneously, yet one be on a "higher" scale?

Also, in the phrase, KoG, if "theos" is not referring to "God the Father" (Jehovah, the God, etc.), could "God" in the phrase Kingdom of God be referring to the God of the age, who is Jesus?

(Not to be confusing, but "theos" does not always refer to diety, but position, although Jehovah, Jesus, the Holy Spirit are diety, "God" refers to position in some case.)

 

[skypair]

I have heard this delineation before between the KoH and KoG, but I have studied the Scriptures, and in most cases, it seems to be referring to the same thing from a different aspect.

Mainly, to find the distinction, one must study Matthew's parables and then contrast what is spoken of with most of the other mentions of the kingdom of God, especially how Matthew speaks of the kingdom of God.

We're told that there will be an earthly Kingdom and a heavenly Kingdom, just as Abraham had two seeds, but I think that in Scriptures they are the same time period, but different.

Here's the distinction and you will "kick yourself" for not having seen them before. :laugh: Christ's kingdom runs from Adam to the MK in which He will be the visible King, right?

The kingdom of God is called "New." New Heavens, New Earth, New Jerusalem, new creation, etc. So when we are raptured, we go the the KoG -- New Jerusalem (Heb 12:22-24, Luke 21:36, 2Thes 1:5, etc.). When NJ comes down to NE, that will be the KoG come to earth, God Himself living here with us "face-to-face," Rev 22:4. And this, dear hope, is the kingdom we pray for every time we say "the Lord's Prayer" -- "Thy kingdom come!"

So do you see that we ARE the KoG -- we are "New creations" -- but only spiritually now?

Jesus is the God of the age to come. (Kingdom.)

Jehovah is God the Father.

Could both Kingoms exist simultaneously, yet one be on a "higher" scale?

I believe that God and the Son will be One Entity in the New Earth. So far, no one hath seen God at any time but then we will see Him "face-to-face."

Also, in the phrase, KoG, if "theos" is not referring to "God the Father" (Jehovah, the God, etc.), could "God" in the phrase Kingdom of God be referring to the God of the age, who is Jesus?[/quote] Don't know. It'll take someone that is into the languages to answer there.

skypair

 

[HankD]

Yes the entirety of the kingdom will become corrupted.
The whole of professing Christendom will have become corrupted just before the end of the age. The corrupting effect will be felt through out all of professing Christendom

That does not mean that all within professing Christendom will be corrupted but all will at very least feel the effect.

There will be a solution:

Matthew 13:47-50
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Here's the distinction and you will "kick yourself" for not having seen them before. :laugh: Christ's kingdom runs from Adam to the MK in which He will be the visible King, right?

No. Satan is the god of this age. Jesus has been anointed King, but has not ascended the throne.

We're given this picture with Saul and David. Saul was the rightful king. David was anointed king, but did not ascend the throne until Saul was "dethroned".

In the meantime, David surrounded himself with faithful followers who risked life and limb, and who were rewarded with positions of authority when David did ascend the throne.

They had entered David's kingdom, although David's kingdom was future. In the same way, we can enter Christ's Kingdom, although it's future.

Also, in the phrase, KoG, if "theos" is not referring to "God the Father" (Jehovah, the God, etc.), could "God" in the phrase Kingdom of God be referring to the God of the age, who is Jesus? Don't know. It'll take someone that is into the languages to answer there.

I have not studied. It was only recently that I was shown by a Greek teacher that many times we assume that "theos" is referring to God the Father, when the text makes no such distinction.

He made no such claim, one way or the other, concerning the expression "Kingdom of God", only as a generality.

So, it would behoove us to look at it.

I have not done so.

Yet.

Give me a few years.raying: