Matthew 23:13

[Reformed1689]

Now we get the distinction without a difference nonsense. On and on they post.

Except here is the problem, there IS A DIFFERENCE.

 

[Van]

Where does it say prevent entry? Quote please.

Matthew 23:13

 

[Reformed1689]

Matthew 23:13

Which version? I don't see the word prevent in that verse.

 

[InTheLight]

Now we get the distinction without a difference nonsense. On and on they post.

The verses clearly says they were "going in". The Pharisees tried to prevent that. They failed.

Where does it say they were actually prevented entry?

 

[Van]

<Looks at thread title>

MATTHEW 23:13

Topic is Matthew 23:13. YOU started the thread. YOU are the one going on about irresistible grace means compelled entry. That idea is nowhere to be found in Matthew 23:13. Neither is the idea of irresistible grace.

1) I did not start the thread
2) Being prevented from completing the entry after initiating entry means they were not compelled by irresistible grace.

 

[Van]

Which version? I don't see the word prevent in that verse.

Look it up.

 

[Reformed1689]

Look it up.

I plan to, but the version you linked to doesn't say prevent. So what version says prevent?

 

[Van]

The verses clearly says they were "going in". The Pharisees tried to prevent that. They failed.

Where does it say they were actually prevented entry?

Twaddle, just read the verse folks.

 

[Van]

I plan to, but the version you linked to doesn't say prevent. So what version says prevent?

Look it up.

 

[Reformed1689]

Look it up.

Really? I asked you for clarification on what version says prevented and this is how you respond? Is that because there isn't a version that says prevented or you just want to be childish?

 

[Van]

Really? I asked you for clarification on what version says prevented and this is how you respond? Is that because there isn't a version that says prevented or you just want to be childish?

You are just posting nonsense, nitpicking and deflecting. Matthew 23:13 If people are shut out, not allowed in, they are prevented from entry. More distinction without a difference deflection.

Being prevented from completing the entry after initiating entry means they were not compelled by irresistible grace.

Total Spiritual Inability is proven bogus by Matthew 23:13, because people were entering without being compelled by irresistible grace. It is a twofer.

 

[Reformed1689]

You are just posting nonsense, nitpicking and deflecting. Matthew 23:13 If people are shut out, not allowed in, they are prevented from entry. More distinction without a difference deflection.

Where does it say they were shut out? What version says that?

 

[InTheLight]

1) I did not start the thread

You are correct. I assumed it was you.

2) Being prevented from completing the entry after initiating entry means they were not compelled by irresistible grace.

That's quite a leap. And a strawman to boot. Please name anyone that said the people in Matthew 23:13 that were hindered from entering were being compelled by irresistible grace.

 

[InTheLight]

Total Spiritual Inability is proven bogus by Matthew 23:13, because people were entering without being compelled by irresistible grace. It is a twofer.

AHHH, so they WERE ENTERING.

 

[Dave G]

Van,
I've decided not to reply to several of your other points in post #16, because I can see that our view of Scripture on those points is very different.
I would, however like to respond to these:

5) Next you deny we are saved by grace through faith and we are chosen individually for salvation through faith in the truth. Twaddle

What I deny, Van, is the idea that "faith does the purchasing", or that faith is the means by which a person comes to Christ.
I firmly hold to faith being the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) of salvation, not the means to achieving it.

6) No one said or suggested "believing the right things" saved anyone. Please address the actual view, we are saved when God alone credits our faith, as worthless as it may be, as righteousness.

Perhaps not, and please forgive me if I've misunderstood you.
However, from your posts, especially over a long period of time, it appears that you believe that a person's faith in Christ is what secures salvation for them.
It is not merely the evidence, but the means by which a person gains eternal life.

So, I'll address the underlined:
I disagree.
Why?
There's much more to it all than simply Romans 4:1-8.

Also, because I truly believe that if God credits a person with anything, even faith, then that gives them something that they could potentially boast about.
Scripture states that salvation is by grace through faith, not because of it ( Ephesians 2:8 ).
Everything must be by His grace, or it mixes works...man's efforts at gaining God's favor... with God's efforts ( Romans 11:5-6 ).

As far as I'm concerned, it's black and white, dark and light.
If man is responsible for anything in the entire process of salvation, then it's similar to introducing a drop of raw sewage into a barrel of pure, refreshing mountain spring water.
It's now tainted and unholy, which is what His Gospel is:
Holy.

Untouched by human hands or minds.
Anyone who touches it, wrangles with it, twists it, corrupts it or otherwise seeks to do damage to it is automatically condemned, and stated to be "anathema"...cursed and bound for Hell ( Galatians 1:8-9 )
Yes, it's that serious.

Also,
God will not have any of His children to boast in anything other than His mercy and grace ( Titus 3:5-6 ).
Therefore, their faith necessarily becomes a gift, because if it was used as a means to get into His good graces, then He would be leaving men with a "leg to stand on" when it comes to His work of salvation.

But Scripture states that no flesh shall "glory" in His presence ( 1 Corinthians 1:29 ):

" But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." ( 1 Corinthians 1:30-31 )

Anyone who is "in Christ" is there because it was "of Him" that they were put there ( Ephesians 1:4-5 )..
There is nothing to take pride in, if faith is a gift instead of the means to achieving the gift.
Faith is worth a great deal, to those who have it.


It's a precious gift.

 

[Dave G]

So what version says prevent?

None that I am aware of.

Where does it say they were shut out? What version says that?

"Shut out"?
None of them, again, that I am aware of.
"Shut off" = NASB
"Shut up", most of the others.

Please name anyone that said the people in Matthew 23:13 that were hindered from entering were being compelled by irresistible grace.

I would agree to that.

Those that are entering are the ones entering into the kingdom of God.
No one can enter into the kingdom of God without being first, born again.
No one can be born again unless it is God's will ( John 1:13, James 1:18 ) and they are "begat" by His will...not their will.
Since no man seeks God in and of themselves ( Romans 3:10-18 and others ), then God has to do all the work in bringing someone to Him in repentance.

Therefore, anyone who enters into the kingdom of God, does so by His grace...
... and the reason it is "irresistible", is because Allmighty, all-powerful God is the only one who can change a rebellious sinner into a son worthy of His adoption.

 

[Alan Gross]

I just don't see why you can't simply exegete the passage to show me how your view is correct.

'Deny' is the only 'exegete' I see from the 'Van'.

It's possible, 'entrance' means, ' introduce', 'aquaint', 'expose', and that 'the kingdom of God' means, 'the influences of The Gospel preaching and Message Contained within the Ordinances of Jesus' churches'.

"...many, I say into you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able" Luke 13:24b.

I'm starting to think you don't even know what exegesis is....

If 'exegesis' is 'deny', he has that covered.

"But, woe..."

 

[Reformed1689]

'Deny' is the only 'exegete' I see from the 'Van'.

I fear you are right.

 

[Van]

Van,
I've decided not to reply to several of your other points in post #16, because I can see that our view of Scripture on those points is very different.
I would, however like to respond to these:

What I deny, Van, is the idea that "faith does the purchasing", or that faith is the means by which a person comes to Christ.
I firmly hold to faith being the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) of salvation, not the means to achieving it.

Perhaps not, and please forgive me if I've misunderstood you.
However, from your posts, especially over a long period of time, it appears that you believe that a person's faith in Christ is what secures salvation for them.
It is not merely the evidence, but the means by which a person gains eternal life.

So, I'll address the underlined:
I disagree.
Why?
There's much more to it all than simply Romans 4:1-8.

Also, because I truly believe that if God credits a person with anything, even faith, then that gives them something that they could potentially boast about.
Scripture states that salvation is by grace through faith, not because of it ( Ephesians 2:8 ).
Everything must be by His grace, or it mixes works...man's efforts at gaining God's favor... with God's efforts ( Romans 11:5-6 ).

As far as I'm concerned, it's black and white, dark and light.
If man is responsible for anything in the entire process of salvation, then it's similar to introducing a drop of raw sewage into a barrel of pure, refreshing mountain spring water.
It's now tainted and unholy, which is what His Gospel is:
Holy.

Untouched by human hands or minds.
Anyone who touches it, wrangles with it, twists it, corrupts it or otherwise seeks to do damage to it is automatically condemned, and stated to be "anathema"...cursed and bound for Hell ( Galatians 1:8-9 )
Yes, it's that serious.

Also,
God will not have any of His children to boast in anything other than His mercy and grace ( Titus 3:5-6 ).
Therefore, their faith necessarily becomes a gift, because if it was used as a means to get into His good graces, then He would be leaving men with a "leg to stand on" when it comes to His work of salvation.

But Scripture states that no flesh shall "glory" in His presence ( 1 Corinthians 1:29 ):

" But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." ( 1 Corinthians 1:30-31 )

Anyone who is "in Christ" is there because it was "of Him" that they were put there ( Ephesians 1:4-5 )..
There is nothing to take pride in, if faith is a gift instead of the means to achieving the gift.
Faith is worth a great deal, to those who have it.

It's a precious gift.

Hi Dave, you say faith is not the means of obtaining or accessing salvation. Whosoever believes in Him shall have eternal life says it is. Romans 5:2 says faith provides the access to the grace in which we stand. We are saved through faith, therefore our faith exists before salvation. If you go into a room through a door, you use the door to access the room.

Next, you appear to deny God credits our faith as righteousness because then we could boast. Nonsense, scripture means what it says, even when it says your doctrines are bogus.

First Corinthians 1:26-30 says God puts us into Christ. By what means does He do it? By spiritually setting us apart in Christ which is "the sanctification by the Spirit. And He does it on the basis of crediting our faith, as worthless as it may be, as righteousness.

 

[Van]

AHHH, so they WERE ENTERING.

Yes, and therefore were seeking God without being compelled with irresistible grace because they were blocked by false teaching.