Calvinism says seeks God at any time unless compelled by irresistible grace. And obviously that assertion is bogus. The bible tells of people seeking God many times, some using the wrong method (through works) and some through faith.
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Matthew 23:13
- Thread starter agedman
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Calvinism says seeks God at any time unless compelled by irresistible grace. And obviously that assertion is bogus. The bible tells of people seeking God many times, some using the wrong method (through works) and some through faith.
Look it up.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
First off, the people in Matthew 23:13 are not merely seeking God--they are entering the kingdom of Heaven. They're way past the "seeking God" stage.
Secondly, you cannot show, nor does the verse state, that irresistible grace compelled the people to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Thirdly, you cannot name anyone, Calvinist or non-Cal, that thinks irresistible grace caused these people to be knock, knock, knockin' at heaven's door.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Van,
Per the underlined, I'm sure you'll find it no surprise that I once again, disagree.
Regrettably, I suspect that when you read Romans 5:2, you somehow see that it is faith providing the access, but I do not.
For example and to explain in more detail:
" Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."
Breaking the passage down, I see this:
Verse 1 states that the believer ( the context of who is spoken of being established in Romans 1:7 ) is justified by faith...not because of it.
In other words, their justification is both inwardly and outwardly shown by their being in possession of faith.
Verse 2 states that the believer, who has peace with God through the Lord Jesus Christ, is also told that it is by Him ( the "by Whom" ) that they have access by faith to that grace.
Jesus Christ is the One who has made it possible for the believer to have access to that grace, and once again, they shown to stand by the faith that was given to them ( Scripture illuminating and providing details about other Scriptures where there are "blanks" ( see Ephesians 2:8 ), and that He authored and finished for them ( Hebrews 12:2 ).
In other words, my understanding about any topic, like where faith comes from, is brought in from other places where God provides the details that are not dealt with in the immediate passage.
God saying something in one "verse", and then stating something else in another, requires the information from one to be brought into the other in order to further define, or "flesh it out" in order to give it a "composite picture".
It's the very same process that the human mind uses when reading a newspaper article or a technical manual...only now we are dealing with the very words of God, and I firmly believe that they need to be handled much more carefully than man-made texts.
Because Scripture is not a series of "sound bites" or "proof texts" and is instead a Book of letters from the Lord to His children, He expects them to remember the details of what He told them in another letter, and then build on the information to arrive at a finely detailed view of everything stated about the subject ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).
Building on many "sound bites", and then combining what is found in each one, yields a very detailed and complete picture...while one "verse" does not do the topic justice, as I see it.
So, if you're wondering why I reply the way that I do, it's because I use this technique to read God's word and to remember the details that I've picked up from all over the Bible to give a well-informed answer, to the best of my ability.
Since it's all the word of God, and every word is equally important ( Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4 ) , then anything he says about faith, for example, must be carefully considered and "woven in" to any discussion about the topic.
That's why I answer you the way that I do.
I agree, because Scripture declares that ( Ephesians 2:8 ).
I disagree.
I clearly see, based on declaration, that salvation ( God's deciding to save someone ) was accomplished before the world began, by His choosing ( Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, 2 Timothy 1:9 ), not our choosing.
Therefore, salvation precedes faith and belief.
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Obfuscation on display, they were entering but were not allowed to go in.
Your objections of without merit. Of course irresistible grace did not compel entry, that is my point!!
They were seeking God, and more, but the seeking God part shows total spiritual inability to be bogus.
Of course Calvinists think anyone entering the kingdom of heaven is being compelled by irresistible grace. According to their bogus views, no one ever seeks God unless enabled by irresistible grace.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Van,
Scripture says that Jesus is the "door", not faith.
" I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."( John 10:9 )
In God's word, faith is never described as a door, but something the believer does things by and through.
Eternal life is never described as being by faith, but is rather a gift ( Romans 6:23 ) given by God to someone.
Please allow me to clarify:
I do not deny that the believer's faith is credited to them as righteousness.
What I deny is, that faith can be "acquired" outside of God choosing to bestow it to someone.
Again, faith is the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ), not the means.
God provides everything good to His child ( John 3:27, James 1:17 ) that is necessary to see them through this life and on into the next.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
I agree.
Scripture says what it says, only I think that you are not considering all the relevant details.
I think that what you are unconsciously doing, is losing track of what God declares in one area, while reading in another.
However, I cannot read your mind, so you'd have to tell me if I'm correct or not.
I agree.
I also see, in greater detail, God choosing us "in Christ", before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).
So, based on added detail brought in from something else significant that He said in another passage, I now have a more complete "picture" of what it means to be "in Christ" and why.
Again, I agree, and again there's more that can be said from Scripture about the subject.
I'm sorry to state this, but now it appears that you're back to thinking that something man does, instead of something God gives him, can result in being credited with the righteousness of Christ...and I must now disagree with you.
Van, if anything man does, believes, desires or otherwise "works up" or thinks actually results in gaining God's favor, then that moves man from the "passive, receiving column" on the tally sheet, right on over to the "active, determine-my-own destiny" column.
As I see it, salvation does not and cannot work that way, simply because Scripture states salvation being by grace, not works.
Any mixture of the two results in tainting God's holy work ( Romans 11:5-6 ), and He will not have anyone to take credit for anything.
God's grace and efforts towards a sinner are the only things we, as Christ's sheep, stand on ( Titus 3:5-6 )
I wish you well, and this is my last reply to you in this thread ( hopefully ).
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Van,
Per the underlined, I'm sure you'll find it no surprise that I once again, disagree.
Regrettably, I suspect that when you read Romans 5:2, you somehow see that it is faith providing the access, but I do not.
For example and to explain in more detail:
" Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."
Breaking the passage down, I see this:
Verse 1 states that the believer ( the context of who is spoken of being established in Romans 1:7 ) is justified by faith...no because of it.
In other words, their justification is outwardly shown by their being in possession of faith.
Verse 2 states the the believer, who has peace with God through the Lord Jesus Christ, is also told that it is by Him ( the "by Whom" ) that they have access by faith to that grace.
Jesus Christ is the One who has made it possible for the believer to have access to that grace, and once again, they shown to stand by the faith that was given to them ( Scripture illuminating and providing details about other Scriptures where there are "blanks", see Ephesians 2:8 ) and that He authored and finished for them ( Hebrews 12:2 ).
In other words, my understanding about any topic, like where faith comes from, is brought in from other places where God provides the details that are not dealt with in the immediate passage.
God saying something in one "verse", and then stating something else in another, requires the information from one to be brought into the other in order to further define, or "flesh it out" in order to give it a "composite picture".
It's the very same process that the human mind uses when reading a newspaper article or a technical manual...only now we are dealing with the very words of God, and they need to be handled much more carefully.
Because Scripture is not a series of "sound bites" or "proof texts" and is instead a Book of letters from the Lord to His children, He expects them to remember the details of what He told them in another letter, and then build on the information to arrive and a finely detailed view of everything stated about the subject ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).
Building on many "sound bites", and then combining what is found in each one, yields a very detailed and complete picture...while one "verse" does not do the topic justice, as I see it.
So, if you're wondering why I reply the way I do, it's because I use this technique to read God's word and to remember the details that I've picked up from all over the Bible to give a well-informed answer, to the best of my ability.
Since it's all the word of God, and every word is equally important ( Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4 ) , then anything he says about faith, for example, must be carefully considered and "woven in" to any discussion about a topic.
That's why I answer you the way that I do.
I agree, because Scripture declares that ( Ephesians 2:8 ).
I disagree.
I clearly see, based on declaration, that salvation ( God's deciding to save someone ) was accomplished before the world began, by His choosing ( Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, 2 Timothy 1:9 ), not our choosing.
Therefore, salvation precedes faith and belief.
So when you enter a room through a door, the do not go through the door first.
Nothing I can say!!
Next we have access by faith means faith provides the access.
Nothing I can say!
Only Ephesians 1:4 says we were chosen in Him before creation, 2 Timothy 1:9 says God provided the grace (His redemption plan) before creation. There other two verses support my view.
So you deny the Calvinism doctrine of Irresistible Grace is held by Calvinists. Nonsense.
Scripture says we access by faith the grace in which we stand. We are saved by grace through faith. Scripture says "his faith" or "your faith" many times, but never says "his God given faith" or your God given faith."
No verse says "God bestows faith." Your beliefs seem based on what you can read into scripture.
And finally Hebrews 11:1 does not say faith is evidence of God's bestowal of faith. That is nonsense. You have "faith" in God's bestowal of faith, but that is not evidence, because I have "faith" God credits our faith as righteousness, bestowed faith would not need to be credited.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
More obfuscation, Irresistible Grace is the "I" of the TULIP. They must deny their own doctrine because it is bogus.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
I am not a Calvinist. I agree that irresistible grace is a Calvinist doctrine. I agree that the 'I' in TULIP is irresistible grace.
I do not agree with you that Calvinists assert irresistible grace is involved in Matthew 23:13. I've asked you three times now to name a Calvinist that speaks of irresistible grace in connection with Matthew 23:13.
Name one Calvinist that believes irresistible grace is a part of Matthew 23:13.
If you don't, you are simply putting forth a strawman argument. (That's a #4 for those keeping score at home.)
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Is there a legitimate interpretation of Matthew 23:13?
There are words in the verse that need to be interpreted, legitimately.
The Bible interpretation of, "the kingdom of heaven" and the word, "entering" is found in The Bible.
I believe that each verse of The Bible has ONE INTERPRETATION.
God Has Revealed Himself to mankind, through The Bible, and this is The Lord God of The Universe Speaking, in Matthew 23.
Jesus Means what He Says.
Assumptions, gratuitous assertions, guesses, none readings, & being not interested in the least, as to what Jesus is Saying is illigitamate and a totally irrational waiste of time.
If the "wise and prudent" have had Jesus Hide the Divine Interpretation from them, so be it.
Blantantly dismissing ligitament interpretations is the indication.
Eternal Salvation is Taught in The Bible.
I do not see any reference or illusion to any words expressing anything about Eternal Salvation that is ACTUALLY TAUGHT IN MATTHEW 23:13.
I DO NOT SEE IT IN THERE.
Are there things that people make up that you do not see in The Bible?
That's what I am talking about.
I do not see Eternal Salvation refered to , by Jesus Christ, in Matthew 23:13.
There are A Lot of things in The Bible
There are words in the verse that need to be interpreted, legitimately.
The Bible interpretation of, "the kingdom of heaven" and the word, "entering" is found in The Bible.
I believe that each verse of The Bible has ONE INTERPRETATION.
God Has Revealed Himself to mankind, through The Bible, and this is The Lord God of The Universe Speaking, in Matthew 23.
Jesus Means what He Says.
Assumptions, gratuitous assertions, guesses, none readings, & being not interested in the least, as to what Jesus is Saying is illigitamate and a totally irrational waiste of time.
If the "wise and prudent" have had Jesus Hide the Divine Interpretation from them, so be it.
Blantantly dismissing ligitament interpretations is the indication.
Eternal Salvation is Taught in The Bible.
I do not see any reference or illusion to any words expressing anything about Eternal Salvation that is ACTUALLY TAUGHT IN MATTHEW 23:13.
I DO NOT SEE IT IN THERE.
Are there things that people make up that you do not see in The Bible?
That's what I am talking about.
I do not see Eternal Salvation refered to , by Jesus Christ, in Matthew 23:13.
There are A Lot of things in The Bible
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