Matthew 24, 25 - Not to Christians??

Gordon IMO the Bible paints a different picture of ruling and reigning for the church believers. We will not be ruling on the physical earth, but from the kingdom of the heavens, which is the spiritual kingdom that Satan current rules from. Now our rule will be over the earth under the King of kings and the Lord of lords, but it will be from the heavenly sphere not the earthly.

The physical rulership over this earth has been promised to the nation of Israel. They will be the head of the nations.

PM me if you would like so more detailed resource material.

 

James the picture of Jesus in Revelation 1 is that of a judge, becuase of the way that He is dressed. The rapture picture had already taken place because John was caught up or taken up and given the picture.

Jesus is seen as the judge standing in the midst of the seven churches. Now that doesn't diminish what He had to say to the seven churches, and it certainly doesn't mean that we can't learn anything from it, becuase we can learn a TON.

But again there can be no separation at the JSOC if there is nothing there that the obedient, overcoming, faithful believers are to be separated from.

Again I would ask if only faithful, obedient, overcoming believers are going to stand at the JSOC who are the tares that the wheat are to be separated from at that time? And the picture we get is of the faithful and the unfaithful together at the same time (parables). Then Paul tells us that there are those that are going to have gold, silver and precious stones and some that are going to have wood, hay and stubble, but how can there be those that have wood, hay and stubble if there aren't any unfaithful at the JSOC?

Again when taking the whole of Scripture it seems to me that the only conclusion that can be drawn is that the rapture is pre-trib and that all "saved" folks will be taken out at the same time and there will be a separation at that point.

But I guess only time will tell

 

James I'm totally lost as to what you are saying now

So wicked and faithful are going together, but lukewarm will be left? Am I reading you right?

If so I don't think we have three categories. We just have two. You are either a part of the faithful crowd or you are part of the unfaithful crowd. There isn't a "lukewarm" category where you are faithful sometimes and not so faithful others

And while your analogy of being left to ripen might work for my dad's garden (becuase he will pick some tomatoes and leave others) I don't think it is an accruate picture of the harvest.

My father-in-law is a farmer (wheat and corn). And when it's harvest time the whole field gets harvested. Some portions are good and others are lousy, but he doesn't save a portion of the field to be harvested later.

At the harvest growing time is over. You either are ripe or rotten

Now I think there are different harvest times. I believe the Bible teaches there will be a harvest pre-tribulation and there will be a harvest post-tribulation.

But those that have accepted the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ pre-tribulation will be harvested at the same time. Then those that are "saved" during the tribulation will be harvested after the tribulation just prior to the kingdom.

 

I think that is one of those things that the Bible does not explicity spell out for us, but once we plug all the pieces into place that is what is being taught.

Is not the rapture of the church speaking of the harvest? And the rapture is pre-tribulation, so therefore a pre-tribulation harvest?

 

Again I don't think the pre-trib rapture is one of those teachings that is laid out on the surface in a nice and neat fashion as many want things to be laid out, but is something that must be worked for to gain understanding.

Again I don't see how a conditional rapture would coincide with what other Scripture says about a separation at the JSOC.

But I would like to listen to the message, so hopefully you can dig up that link. :thumbs: I've got a good one on Revelation 1, well I say I . . . it's not me, but I can send you the link

 

Matt.24-25: Believers and Jews now and Nations at SC

James_Newman and J Jump,

On what Scriptural basis could there ever be a "conditional rapture"?

The rapture for Believers will be total and unconditional; but Believers
are expected to be "worthy of Christ at His Presence". I Thess.3:13;
I Thess.5:23; 2 Thess.1:5-11 (Note verses 5 and 11)! So to whom
does the matter of "conditionality" apply?

The warnings of Jesus show that, of the ones taken and left after Christ appears, only those who are "willing to die will be kept alive"! Luke 17:30-33. This "condition" relates only to Unbelievers who "mourn and beg to escape all these things that happenS" (plural noun with singular verb) on the Day of Wrath, the Last Day!! Rev.1:7; Zech.12:10; Matt.24:30; Luke 21:25-36. Verse 36 clearly indicates "conditionality"!!!

Those "left behind of the nations (of those Daniel and Zechariah state will be allowed to continue after Christ destroys the Beast) are the subjects who will not only ENTER the Millennial kingdom; but also continue to the end of the 1000-year Reign on earth AT WHICH TIME the sheep must be separated from the goats. Dan.7:11-12; Zech.14:16-17; Matt.25:32-34.

No specific "time" for the separation is given in Matt.25; but Rev.20:8 reveals the separation should occur at the end of the Millennium so the nations that "inherit the earth" may fulfill Rev.21:24-26; Rev.22:2,14.

Most of those on this thread acknowledge the so-called PRE-Trib rapture
passages fail to SET the time for the Rapture of ALL Believers ... despite
Jesus having explicitly promised to "raise up ALL Believers on the last
day"! John 6:38-40; 44,54. Yet we must agree the "inheritance of the eternal kingdom" in the context of Matt.25 should require the CONDITION Jesus laid down by which the sheep nations may qualify for and take possession of the Kingdom!! That eternal "inheritance" occurs at the END of the Millennial testing period according to Rev.21:24-26 ... at the same time the BRIDE of the Lamb comes down from heaven to be "inhabited forever" by the Saints alone!!! Rev.21:2,9.

The Bride will "inhabit" the New Jerusalem forever while the "saved kings of earth" (KJV) will "inherit the eternal earthly kingdom and bring their glory
and honor into the New Jerusalem ... and be healed by the leaves of the
tree of life". Rev.21:24-26; Rev.22:2,14.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

I don't know where Heaven will be. I'm satisfied that I as a believer will be with my God. I don't know (or care) whether Christ will come back once or multiple times but really believe He will come back once as He promised. I do know that only those true believers who have persevered until the end will be with Him. All others will go to Hell.

Argue about the details.

 

Matt.24-25 and those to whom it applies.

StraitAndNarrow,

I can't see how your above quote relates to the question of a "condition"
to be meant by those who "inherit the eternal kingdom on earth". No "condition" exists for "inhabiting" Heaven other than faith in Christ and membership in the Bride of the Lamb. Those who "persevere to the end" will include all who suffer for Christ and all who "overcome to the end" according to Rev.12:11 and Rev.2:25-27.

But when Christ appears with ALL the Saints, He promises those who "mourn and beg to escape all the things happening on that Day will be kept alive"! Luke 17:30-33; Luke 21:25-36. That includes all the Jews!!
Joel 2:32; Rom.11:25-27. And it includes all others who are "willing do die to be kept alive ON THAT DAY"!!! Luke 17:30-33; 2 Thess.1:7-10.

As to knowing where Heaven will be, John stated the "New Jerusalem will come down upon/over the New earth"! No problem. But how is it that "all others", beside the Elect, "will be sent to Hell" (as you affirm) if they are "kept alive" and must come "annually to Jerusalem to worship God and be ruled with a rod of iron for 1000 years"??? Zech.14:9-16; Rev.15:4; Rev.2:26-27; Rev.19:15.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

2 Peter 1:20-21 KJV1611 Edition:
Knowing this first, that no prophecy
of the Scripture is of any priuate Interpretation:
21 For the prophecie came not in olde time
by the will of man: but holy men of God spake
as they were moued by the holy Ghost.

Alas, this is one of those FREQUENTLY MISUNDERSTOOD
scriptures, especially among those who use the
King James Versionss (KJVs).

The Holy Scirpture is NOT written so there is a prophecy
there specifically for J.Jump, or E.Edwards, or etc.
Holy Scripture was written for everybody.
(It can pertain mostly to the Jews, but usually to both
Jews and, in the Church Age now, the mostly Gentile
church.) I believe that Revelation 24 & 25 pertains both
to Jews & to Gentiles.

So no, I don't buy a conditional pretribulation rapture.
I also don't buy conditional salvation: you is saved or you ain't saved
the day you got saved,
today,
the day Jesus comes to get His own folks.

 

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
(in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
instead of an outline. This is most noticable
in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
I believe the major outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.

 

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The time line according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The time line according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
as will 80% of Baptists and 60% of kindred Christians.

--------------------------------
So yes, I believe in the signless pretribulation rapture/resurrection/change.

 

Matt.24 to Christians?

Ed Edwards,

I see no reference to whether you think Matt.24 is to/for Christians!

How can you say there are "no signs preceding the Rapture" at the END of the Age and yet acknowledge that Matt.24:31-44 gives those very signs?

Quote:
____________________________________________________________
3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

THEN:

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

"No signs preceeding the end of the age"
is a summary of" Matthew 24:31-44"

The 'signs' of Matthew 24:31-44 FOLLOW
the end of the age. The age here is the
Church Age AKA (also known as) the Time of the Gentiles.


Matthew 24:31-44 (KJV1611 Edition):
And hee shall send his Angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together his Elect from
the foure windes, from one end of heauen to the other.
32 Now learne a parable of the figtree:
when his branch is yet tender,
and putteth foorth leaues, yee know that Summer is nigh:
33 So likewise yee, when ye shall see all these things,
know that it is neere, euen at the doores.
34 Uerely I say vnto you, this generation shall not passe,
till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heauen and earth shall passe away, but my wordes shall not passe away.
36 But of that day and houre knoweth no man, no,
not the Angels of heauen, but my Father onely.
37 But as the dayes of Noe were, so shall also the comming
of the Sonne of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the dayes that were before
the Flood, they were eating, and drinking,
marrying, and giuing in mariage, vntill the da
that Noe entred into the Arke,
39 And knew not vntill the Flood came, and tooke them all away: so shall also the comming of the Sonne of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field, the one shalbe taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill: the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therfore, for ye know not what houre your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the good man of the house had knowen in what watch the thiefe would come, he would haue watched, and would not haue suffered his house to be broken vp.
44 Therefore be yee also ready: for in such an houre as you thinke not, the sonne of man commeth.

v.31 is the gathering of the saints - no SIGN
v. 32-33 says we can know the times but -- no SIGN
v. 34 says 'this generation shall not pass until fulfilment'
meaning that the end of this age (Church Age also
Time of the Gentiles) is the fulfilment: the pretribulation
rapture of verse 31 -- no SIGN
v. 35 says Christ's words won't pass away -- no SIGN
v. 36 is a repeat of v 34: no sign of the gathering -- no SIGN
v. 37-39 compares the coming of Jesus for the gathering of
the Church age saints to be like the days of Noah, common
ordinary until the end -- no SIGN
v. 40-41 compare the coming of Jesus for the gathering
of the Church age saints to be like two in the field,
or two gridiing - the just seperated from the unjust -- no SIGN
v. 42 restates we know not -- no SIGN
v. 43 we know no when -- no SIGN
v. 44 we know not when -- no SIGN

Matthew 24:31-44 -- no SIGN of the end of the age.
13 verses about the gathering but -- no SIGN is given
for the coming gathering that ends the age: the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection

 

Matt.24 not signs for Christians?

**************************************************************************

You have to delete verse 30 from the Context to support your Theory!
You separate the "times" from the "signs" as if the "times of the Gentiles
no longer exist during the great tribulation signs"!! This is purely your "private" interpretation!!!

So you are saying the SIGNS by which we will "KNOW the End is near"
are NOT SIGNS that precede the Rapture!? Yet Vs. 33 precedes the Rapture and vs.33-34 refer to seeing ALL the signs!! Including those
signs in verse 30 by which "we (and Jews) will know the HOUR is near"!!! Luke 21:28,31.

Your theory is based on refusing to relate verses 31-33 to the DAY and HOUR Christ comes with ALL the Saints! Including Tribulation Martyrs!!
Believers will see the SIGNS of the Lastday before seeing the SIGN of
the Son of Man!!!

What is your proof that "the END of the Age" occurs before the Great Tribulation begins? :saint: "ALL the Saints come with Jesus on one of the days after the great tribulation"! After the angels "gather the elect on
the last day from all extremities of the heavenS" to fulfill John 6:38-40!!
I Thess.3:13. Deny this truth and you deny the word of the Lord!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Mel Miller: //Deny this truth and you deny the word of the Lord!!!//

Sorry, I'm not buying your statement..
Your 'truth' is not necessarily God's Truth.
So, no, you have no moral high ground in what you believe.
About all you can say is "i Beleive it like this ... cause the
Bible says ... ".

Mel Miller: //[But you do not "KNOW the Times"
excludes "KNOWING the SIGNS"]//

Actually the two are different.
The main 'know the Times' is a non-sign:
the time of The Lord's Returns is near because
IT HAS BEEN A LONG TIME -- the Lord's coming
to get us is nearer now than when I first believed it
55 years ago. This is different than a sign.
The main sign of THE END OF THE AGE is
elapsed time.
The main sign of the Coming of the Lord Jesus
in Power & Judgement is THE 7-year Tribulation
that preceeds it.