BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Well since you are posting on this thread and this topic Walter - why no add an actual on-topic post???
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Matthew 24, Verse by Verse, FULFILLED!
- Thread starter Saint of Circumstance
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Well since you are posting on this thread and this topic Walter - why no add an actual on-topic post???
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
BobRyan said: ↑
That would be an extreme form of the logical fallacy : reductio ad absurdum since Paul never argues "you will be alive until Christ is revealed from heaven in flaming fire dealing out retribution to those who do not obey the gospel".
True Paul does not predict that all Christians will survive the persecution (which even James did not survive) and live on for the next 2000 years or even the next 40 years.
Obviously.
Just as Ezekiel was not predicting that Gog and Magog would live on for the next 4000 years whatever "alternate view" you wish to suggest for the future element of Rev 20.
And we all know it.
That would be an extreme form of the logical fallacy : reductio ad absurdum since Paul never argues "you will be alive until Christ is revealed from heaven in flaming fire dealing out retribution to those who do not obey the gospel".
True Paul does not predict that all Christians will survive the persecution (which even James did not survive) and live on for the next 2000 years or even the next 40 years.
Obviously.
Just as Ezekiel was not predicting that Gog and Magog would live on for the next 4000 years whatever "alternate view" you wish to suggest for the future element of Rev 20.
And we all know it.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Which is followed by Matthew 17 -- where Christ is in glory standing with Moses and Elijah... literally.
Saint of Circumstance
Member
Why Omit verse 27?
27"The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds.
Do you believe verse 27 IS speaking of the second advent?
Notice Jesus says "about to come"...
vs 28
There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
What scriptural instruction do you have for completely divorcing verse 27 from verse 28?
Saint of Circumstance
Member
And did He literally "recompense every man according to his deeds then"? as Matt 16:27 testifies would happen?
Saint of Circumstance
Member
Jesus and the apostles taught of a coming to occur in their lifetimes, and by this they meant the imminent destruction of their country, city, and Temple, which took place in short order as they had prophesied:
"This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Mk. 13:30) [spoken in AD 30]
"The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Lk. 3:9) [spoken in AD 27-28]
"The end of all things is at hand" (I Peter 4:7) [spoken in AD 58-63]
"Even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour." (I Jn. 2:18) [spoken in AD 60s]
be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand." (James. 5:8) [spoken before AD 63]
"in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay." (Heb. 10:37) [spoken in AD 60s]
"These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Lk. 21:22) [spoken in AD 30]
"The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds. There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matthew 16:27-28) [spoken in AD 30]
And we all know it.
You have one big prob with your "take" of those Scriptures:
THE PROPHESIED ESCHATOLOGICAL EVENTS HAVE NOT YET OCCURRED!
Otherwise, you could name the "beast/man of sin" & his deputy, the false prophet.
You could describe the mark of the beast & tell us who issued it.
And you could tell us about many other events that had occurred, HAD they occurred.
But they didn't, & you can't.
Paul in 2 Thes. 2 told the readers, but didn't name the man of sin.
John in Revelation gave a code but didn't name him. Irenaeus quoting commenting on Polycarp's memory said:
"We therefore do not run the risk of pronouncing positively concerning the name of the Antichrist [hidden in the number 666 in Rev.13:18], for if it were necessary to have his name distinctly announced at the present time, it would doubtless have been announced by him who saw the apocalypse; for it is not a great while ago that it [or he] was seen, but almost in our own generation, toward the end of Domitian's reign."
The fact that we don't know all the names of those leading the Jewish rebellion doesn't alter the truth.
Saint of Circumstance
Member
First of all, Paul says the man of sin was already in action at the time he is writing and that the Thessalonians knew the man and what was restraining that man -- such is a then-contemporary issue.
The "man of sin," who overtook the Jewish Temple just a decade or so after St. Paul wrote 2 Thess 2, was the Zealot terrorist Menahem, who in AD 66 overtook the Roman Fortress of Masada, used the weapons to launch the Revolt against Rome from the Holy Temple in Jerusalem, and executed the Jewish High Priest Ananias. Menahem was the grandson of Judas the Galilean, who had led an anti-Roman revolt in 6 CE; two of his relatives had been crucified after a similar disturbance. The group of Menahem was called Sicarians ('dagger men'). The Sicarii Zealots hailed their leader as king of the Jews and went to Jerusalem, where they laid siege to the remaining Roman garrison. In September AD 66, the Roman leaders occupying Jerusalem surrendered and were lynched. Here's a great biography on the false Jewish messiah, Menahem,
This event which launched the Great Revolt was the event St. Paul had prophesied in 2 Thess 2, which the Thessalonians were to mark as the correct time for Christ's judgment to begin upon Israel. And indeed it was the beginning of God's Judgment, for immediately following this event the Romans, led by Cestius Gallus, marched to the rebellious province, liberated the pro-Roman capital of Galilee (Sepphoris), and continued to Jerusalem. When they appeared at Jerusalem, Luke 21:20-22 took place, and the Jewish Christians fled the city and were saved. Cestius Gallus was temporarily halted at Jerusalem by the Zealot revolutionaries, and this temporary halt allowed the Christians to escape the great city as Jesus had told them to do. But the Romans quickly returned with a larger army and sealed off the entire city, leaving millions of Jews from all over the empire stuck inside (Luke 19:40-44), where they went through civil war, plague, famine, and then a slaughter by the Romans at AD 70. The Temple was taken down stone by stone as Christ had said. "For those were the days of vengeance, that all things written might be fulfilled." (Luke 21:20-22)
Scriture please? Show us the scripture that teaches the False prophet is the "deputy of the man of Sin" as you claim...while you are at it, go ahead and provide ANY scripture that teaches Paul's Man of Sin and John's Beast are the Same individual human being.....ANY scripture...otherwise we will be forced to conclude that you are adding to scripture that which does not exist within it's pages.
There are two identifiable "marks" in Revelation.
The sealing of the 144,000 jews is accomplished by a mark in the forehead in parallel fashion to the MARK of the beast in the forehead (see Rev. 9:4 and Rev. 7:2-8 and Rev 14:1). Futurists are never consistent on this -- if one is physical-literal then shouldn't BOTH MARKS be seen as physical-literal? Yet just ask a futurist who is the "computer chip manufacturer" today who is producing the "Mark of God," and they have no answer. However, they will speculate all day and night on which technology company is in cahoots with satan to produce his computer implant. I propose that Bill Gates is working on the "Mark-of-God chip implant" for the 144,000. Hehe.
But, in fact, John didn't have computer chips in mind at all when he wrote the passage. Rather, as in so many other parts of Revelation, he was quoting the Old Testament. The following passages should be carefully examined when discussing "the mark on the forehead or hand" that marks people for doom or salvation:
Ez. Chapter 9 -- angels mark people for God's destruction of Jerusalem in 6th Century B.C.
Deut 6:8, Deut 11:18, Exodus 13:9 -- God's marks commanded to be upon the head and hands of his people to show their faithfulness
John's notions in his vision are related to Old Testament concepts -- not modern day conjectures that the MARK of the beast is to be thought of as a some computer product.
CORRELATING EVENTS IN JOHN'S TIME:
William Barclay's generic comments on The Mark:
* On every contract of buying or selling there was a charagma, a seal, and on the seal the name of the emperor and the date. If the mark is connected with this, it means that those who worship the beast accept his authority. Note: this could also be the seal of ownership.
* All coinage had the head and inscription of the emperor stamped upon it, to show that it was his property [coins read: "Caesar is God"]. If the mark is connected with this, it means that those who bear it are the property of the beast.
* When a man had burned his pinch of incense to Caesar, he was given a certificate to say he had done so. The mark of the beast may be the certificate of worship which a Christian could obtain only at the cost of denying his faith.
--------------------
Enforced Emperor Worship:
The Imperial-Cult worship of the Emperor as Lord was enforced throughout the entire empire. Roman officers governed this practice to make sure everyone was abiding by the law -- when one offered sacrifices to Caesar compliance certificates were issued that you had worshipped the Emperor. These certificates allowed business as usual within the Roman system. Failure to comply was an act of War against the Roman State.
-----------------------
DAVID CHILTON: On Economic Boycotts
The Jewish Leaders organized economic boycotts against those who refused to submit to Caesar as Lord, the leaders of the synagogues "forbidding all dealings with the excommunicated," and going so far as to put them to death.
---------------------
6-6-6: The Number of the Existing Caesar
The Hebrew form of "Caesar Nero" is Nrwn Qsr (pronounced "Neron Kaiser"). The value of the seven Hebrew letters is 50, 200, 6, 50, 100, 60, and 200, respectively.
See my opening posts! They are chalk full of real, historically verifiable events fulfilling each and every proclimation Jesus laid out in the Olivet... and, not surprisingly, as is your apparent MO here, you have yet to refute or deny a single one of them! Again, you simply act as if they were never posted, even having the audacity to claim they never were posted by me! Did you even read them?
Thankfully our readers are smarter than you give them credit for... they CAN and DO read, and understand.
Rather, I can and just did
And I'll do it again and again and again.
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Maybe. Maybe not. Verse 28 certainly is not, and if it isn't inseparable from 27, then neither is 27.
Without Matthew 2:15, who would not say that Hosea 11:1 is being wrenched from its context to interpret it as a Messianic prophecy?
But once the history of Israel is seen as an allegory* it is a perfectly reasonable interpretation, and, if the book of Matthew is accurate, it's the correct one.
*Allegorical does not mean non-historical. Hagar and Sarah, Ishmael and Isaac were real and their histories are true, but Paul still calls them an allegory.
First of all, Paul says the man of sin was already in action at the time he is writing and that the Thessalonians knew the man and what was restraining that man -- such is a then-contemporary issue.
The "man of sin," who overtook the Jewish Temple just a decade or so after St. Paul wrote 2 Thess 2, was the Zealot terrorist Menahem, who in AD 66 overtook the Roman Fortress of Masada, used the weapons to launch the Revolt against Rome from the Holy Temple in Jerusalem, and executed the Jewish High Priest Ananias. Menahem was the grandson of Judas the Galilean, who had led an anti-Roman revolt in 6 CE; two of his relatives had been crucified after a similar disturbance. The group of Menahem was called Sicarians ('dagger men'). The Sicarii Zealots hailed their leader as king of the Jews and went to Jerusalem, where they laid siege to the remaining Roman garrison. In September AD 66, the Roman leaders occupying Jerusalem surrendered and were lynched. Here's a great biography on the false Jewish messiah, Menahem,
This event which launched the Great Revolt was the event St. Paul had prophesied in 2 Thess 2, which the Thessalonians were to mark as the correct time for Christ's judgment to begin upon Israel. And indeed it was the beginning of God's Judgment, for immediately following this event the Romans, led by Cestius Gallus, marched to the rebellious province, liberated the pro-Roman capital of Galilee (Sepphoris), and continued to Jerusalem. When they appeared at Jerusalem, Luke 21:20-22 took place, and the Jewish Christians fled the city and were saved. Cestius Gallus was temporarily halted at Jerusalem by the Zealot revolutionaries, and this temporary halt allowed the Christians to escape the great city as Jesus had told them to do. But the Romans quickly returned with a larger army and sealed off the entire city, leaving millions of Jews from all over the empire stuck inside (Luke 19:40-44), where they went through civil war, plague, famine, and then a slaughter by the Romans at AD 70. The Temple was taken down stone by stone as Christ had said. "For those were the days of vengeance, that all things written might be fulfilled." (Luke 21:20-22)
Scriture please? Show us the scripture that teaches the False prophet is the "deputy of the man of Sin" as you claim...while you are at it, go ahead and provide ANY scripture that teaches Paul's Man of Sin and John's Beast are the Same individual human being.....ANY scripture...otherwise we will be forced to conclude that you are adding to scripture that which does not exist within it's pages.
There are two identifiable "marks" in Revelation.
The sealing of the 144,000 jews is accomplished by a mark in the forehead in parallel fashion to the MARK of the beast in the forehead (see Rev. 9:4 and Rev. 7:2-8 and Rev 14:1). Futurists are never consistent on this -- if one is physical-literal then shouldn't BOTH MARKS be seen as physical-literal? Yet just ask a futurist who is the "computer chip manufacturer" today who is producing the "Mark of God," and they have no answer. However, they will speculate all day and night on which technology company is in cahoots with satan to produce his computer implant. I propose that Bill Gates is working on the "Mark-of-God chip implant" for the 144,000. Hehe.
But, in fact, John didn't have computer chips in mind at all when he wrote the passage. Rather, as in so many other parts of Revelation, he was quoting the Old Testament. The following passages should be carefully examined when discussing "the mark on the forehead or hand" that marks people for doom or salvation:
Ez. Chapter 9 -- angels mark people for God's destruction of Jerusalem in 6th Century B.C.
Deut 6:8, Deut 11:18, Exodus 13:9 -- God's marks commanded to be upon the head and hands of his people to show their faithfulness
John's notions in his vision are related to Old Testament concepts -- not modern day conjectures that the MARK of the beast is to be thought of as a some computer product.
CORRELATING EVENTS IN JOHN'S TIME:
William Barclay's generic comments on The Mark:
* On every contract of buying or selling there was a charagma, a seal, and on the seal the name of the emperor and the date. If the mark is connected with this, it means that those who worship the beast accept his authority. Note: this could also be the seal of ownership.
* All coinage had the head and inscription of the emperor stamped upon it, to show that it was his property [coins read: "Caesar is God"]. If the mark is connected with this, it means that those who bear it are the property of the beast.
* When a man had burned his pinch of incense to Caesar, he was given a certificate to say he had done so. The mark of the beast may be the certificate of worship which a Christian could obtain only at the cost of denying his faith.
--------------------
Enforced Emperor Worship:
The Imperial-Cult worship of the Emperor as Lord was enforced throughout the entire empire. Roman officers governed this practice to make sure everyone was abiding by the law -- when one offered sacrifices to Caesar compliance certificates were issued that you had worshipped the Emperor. These certificates allowed business as usual within the Roman system. Failure to comply was an act of War against the Roman State.
-----------------------
DAVID CHILTON: On Economic Boycotts
The Jewish Leaders organized economic boycotts against those who refused to submit to Caesar as Lord, the leaders of the synagogues "forbidding all dealings with the excommunicated," and going so far as to put them to death.
---------------------
6-6-6: The Number of the Existing Caesar
The Hebrew form of "Caesar Nero" is Nrwn Qsr (pronounced "Neron Kaiser"). The value of the seven Hebrew letters is 50, 200, 6, 50, 100, 60, and 200, respectively.
See my opening posts! They are chalk full of real, historically verifiable events fulfilling each and every proclimation Jesus laid out in the Olivet... and, not surprisingly, as is your apparent MO here, you have yet to refute or deny a single one of them! Again, you simply act as if they were never posted, even having the audacity to claim they never were posted by me! Did you even read them?
Thankfully our readers are smarter than you give them credit for... they CAN and DO read, and understand.
Rather, I can and just did
And I'll do it again and again and again.
More conjecture, imagination, and guesswork.
First, Paul did NOT say the "man of sin" was already active. And history bears this out, as no one later sat in the temple & proclaimed himself God. Such an event would NOT have escaped history. And that includes Menahem. (I've read many works about the various Jewish revolts against Rome thru the time of Hadrian)
Also, the Christians had quite a bit of time to flee Jerusalem between the sieges, not just hours, so the surrounding of J by a threatening army, allowing only a short time for escape, is still future. Remember, it MUST happen as JESUS said, not as how men GUESS it has/will.
And yes, the destruction of J & the temple were the culmination of the "days of vengeance". But the ESCHATOLOGICAL events did NOT occur then.
And in Rev. 13, we see the 'beast from the sea' doing what was was prophesied by paul, in cahoots with the "beast from the earth", the false prophet. We see the FP makes his boss' statue speak, in his boss' presence. And later, BOTH are cast together, alive, into the lake of fire. So, your saying the man of sin and the FP won't be together is incorrect.
Also, in Rev. 13, the "beast" gains control over all nations & peoples. And if you bother to read ALL of 2 Thess.2, you'll see it meshes perfectly with Rev. 13, only rev goes into greater detail. We see the "beasts" will be in power til Jesus returns, and He will get rid of both of them at His return.
Now, we don't know what the nature of the "seal" on the foreheads of the 144 K israelis will be, It may or may not be a visible one. and it'll CERTAINLY be different from the mark of the beast, which'll be man-made! (BTW, the 144 K will be ISRAELIS, not all Jews, who are only of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, & Levi. Thus, only 36 K of them will be Jews.)
Now, no Roman Caesar had control of the WHOLE WORLD. And you're just blowing preterist smoke by saying coins with Caesar's likeness on them were the mark of the beast. That's same as saying Lincoln, FDR, Jefferson, Kennedy, etc. were "beasts" cuz their likenesses are on coins.
But again, you're just blowing preterist smoke. The prophecies must be fulfilled TO THE LETTER, as written, same as they've been so far, with the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple, etc. And I see you've skipped over the great trib entirely. While the siege/destruction of J was no fun event, it's not at all the WORST trib in history! The sieges of Warsaw & Stalingrad were much-worse, not to mention the concentration camps! So, you're still batting ZERO, proof-wise.
Saint of Circumstance
Member
Again, since you flat out refuse to provide PROOF that the Biblical events you believe are already fulfilled, happened TO THE LETTER, your demands that I do so for my view are relegated to the unfounded file.
Untill such a time as you provide the level of proof of your view that you require of mine, I'll continue to treat your demands accordingly.
Saint of Circumstance
Member
There is no way around it. The man of sin was alive when Paul wrote 2 Thess 2:4-7, and his attempts to take over the Jerusalem Temple were well underway -- and Paul says they all knew it! You futurists are looking for these things that already happened long ago.
Manahem did just that, you just don't like it.
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”
41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”
Scripture please.
Since we agree Jesus doesn't lie or err, why will you not accept his words to his apostles that THEY would see all those things as well as His return? And why will you not accept that St. James took Jesus' words literally, announcing when the second coming was near at the door in the 60s AD?
CHRIST TO HIS APOSTLES:
Matthew 24:25, 33-34
Behold, I have told you in advance...So, you, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
ST. JAMES CIRCA 60s AD:
James 5:7-9
be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. ...for the coming of the Lord is near...behold, the Judge is standing right at the door.
We have no permission to teach against Christ's words here. Futurists must abandon their views and accept those of Christ and St. James, who placed the last days and return of Christ in the first century.
Time for some education.
AD 66-70 was the greatest Day-of-the-Lord event in Israel's history, and was, unquestionably, the one Christ's followers spoke of mere decades before it transpired. This was the same Day of the Lord concerning which the apostles stated they would remain alive unto its passing (1 Thess 5:2-4,23; Phil 1:6,10; Heb 10:25,36-39; 1 Cor 1:7-8; 1 Cor 5:5).
Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) can never be repeated.
Did you catch that Roby??
Due to the COVENENTAL SIGNIFICANCE of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) CAN NEVER BE REPEATED.
--THEREFORE--
There is no equal to the level of devastation millions of Messiah-rejecting Jews endured as they were violently excommunicated out of covenant with God (Matt 21:40-45; Acts 3:22-24).
Did you get that Roby??
THERE IS NO EQUAL to the level of devastation millions of Messiah-rejecting Jews endured as they were violently excommunicated out of covenant with God (Matt 21:40-45; Acts 3:22-24).
Without question, Jesus promised his apostles that they would live to see Israel's great tribulation ("great distress in the land and wrath upon this people") and all those things come to pass in their generation (Matt 24:33-34; Luke 21:31-32).
You are also ignoring the precedented usage of the language "Ever was nor ever shall be"
Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12 that there was "no king like Solomon before or after him." Such statements are then repeated in2 Kings 18:5-6 of Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. (And, of course, Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon -- Matt. 12:42). Furthermore, this same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon O.T. Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2). The Ezekiel 5:9 passage is especially instructive to us, for it states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future.
You are making a choice to ignore this set precedent in favor of a hyper literal hollywood style interpretation that was completely foreign to Jesus the Apostles.
Without question, Jesus promised his apostles that they would live to see Israel's great tribulation ("great distress in the land and wrath upon this people") and all those things come to pass in their generation (Matt 24:33-34; Luke 21:31-32).
Roby, once again, until you provide a lucid refutation of the above, you remain hopelessly unsubstantiated in your Hollywood fantasyland interpretation of the great tribulation.
It remains high time time you accept the BIBLICAL interpretation, and reject the inventions of men.
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Saint of Circumstance
Member
Now for a History Lesson:
I would recommend Josephus' First hand account titled: War of the Jews.
Significant exerpts of which can be found HERE
Josephus records atrocities such as Jewish Women killing, roasting and eating their own babys (I do not remember hearing any account of Jewish women roasting and eating their own children in the Sieges of Warsaw and Stalingrad - Perhaps they did not suffer as Great of a Tribulation as did their predecessors of 66-70AD), also He records the passing of many "signs" prior to Jerusalems destruction.
Of those "signs" Josephus writes:
Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend, nor give credit, to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation; but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also, before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eight day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day-time; which light lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskilful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it.
At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner, [court of the temple,] which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now, those that kept watch in the temple came thereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared, that this signal forshewed the desolation that was coming upon them.
Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one-and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence." (Book VI, Chapter 5, Section 3)
The Historian Tacitus independantly confirms these "angelic armies":
"In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightening flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure" (Tacitus, Histories, v. 13).
As you can plainly see, History records many supernatural events "literally" ocourring at the destruction of Jerusalem as well. Chariots and soldiers running amongst the clouds, Superhuman voices, signs in the stars, a great light shining in the middle of the night for 30 minutes on the holy of holies, illuminating it like daytime, Jewish History even records that the Glory cloud of Yahweh, departing from the temple and resting on the mount of olives for the entire 3.5 years of the war, before disapearing alltogether.
I am unclear by what criteria one can assert with any certainty that these "Chariots" were not Christ's angelic army, and that Christ himself was not personally present in the "Light" that shown on the temple, and that the voices heard exclaiming "let us depart" were not Christ and the dead saints He resurrected out of Hades.
If these supernatural events, that were recorded in history as having LITERALLY ocourred at the destruction of Jerusalem, are not to be understood as The Lord of the Vinyard personally returning to miserably destroy those wicked husbandmen as He promised them He would do, then what is your explaination of them?
As the OP is now banned for anti-Semitism, this thread is closed.
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