Matthew 28:19-20 demands Landmarkism ecclesiology

[The Biblicist]

The eschatology here is confusing. Are you saying that New Jerusalem will be made before "Babylon" is destroyed? Is new Jerusalem here now? 21:24 is not referring to anyone living outside of New Jerusalem, it is refferring to the same group of 5:9-10

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Note that Revelation 21:1-2 sets the time frame for this chapter and it is after the Great White Seat Judgment in Revelation 20. This is when John saw the New Jerusalem come down out of a new heaven and a new earth in the eternal age. Outside on the new earth dwell "nations of the SAVED" as contrasted to those dwelling inside the city.

 

[McCree79]

Note that Revelation 21:1-2 sets the time frame for this chapter and it is after the Great White Seat Judgment in Revelation 20. This is when John saw the New Jerusalem come down out of a new heaven and a new earth in the eternal age. Outside on the new earth dwell "nations of the SAVED" as contrasted to those dwelling inside the city.

New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ. That is how the New Jerusalem is introduced in verse 9. Anyone not found in the New Jerusalem would not be a Christian. Don't see any evidence anywhere that Christians live outside the presence of God after the parousia.

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[The Biblicist]

4. The natural threefold organic process of the context

The primary verb is Aorist tense and it is modified by three participles. The verb instructs them what they must do - make disciples. The participles inform them how to do it. The first participle is Aorist tense and therefore its completed action precedes that of the action of the main verb. This means Jesus has assumed they have gone evangelizing already and that is why they have "them" as subjects of baptism and instruction as "them" are those from among the nations that responded to the gospel. This is important as evangelization precedes baptism and church membership in the Great Commission or as the older Baptists used to say "blood BEFORE the water."

The next two participles are found in the present tense meaning their action is contemporary with the action of the main verb. Making disiplies out of "them" (the evangelized) is to baptize them first, then instruct them how to observe all things commanded. Thus the threefold process of the Great Commission (1) Evangelize (2) baptize; (3) instruct how to observe all things.

The very command "make disciples" demands reproduction of like kind - disciples of Christ.
The last aspect of the commission demands obedience to the first aspect and so on thus producing a natural cycle of reproduction after its own kind.

Furthermore, this is a organic link to link connection. By "organic" I mean there is direct contact between "ye' and "them" in each step. No TV and modern media when the commission was given and so the evangelist must go and make actual contact with the listeners. Baptism was a hands on ordinance of direct contact between "ye" and "them." Teaching them is by direct contact. Hence, this commission requires direct context between the first link "ye" to the second link "them" in all three aspects.

Finally, the promise of the Lord to be with them doing this to the end of age guarantees success in every generation, there will be congregations of baptized believers of like faith and order reproduced in every generation "until the end of the age." In fact, the very promise demands link to link days in this age as it literally reads "all the days" or as Dr. Henkricksen a reformed scholar translates the meaning "day in and day out until the end of the Age."

 

[The Biblicist]

New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ. That is how the New Jerusalem is introduced in verse 9. Anyone not found in the New Jerusalem would not be a Christian. Don't see any evidence anywhere that Christians live outside the presence of God after the parousia.

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You are making a lot of assumptions many of which are simply not true. First wrong assumption is that all the saved are in the bride. The church is the bride and the church cannot preexist its own "foundation" (Eph. 2:20) which consists FIRST of apostles (1 Cor. 12;28) "set in the church." Old Testament saints are not in the Bride.

Second, not all NT saints are in the Bride as the vast majority are found in the Great Whore (Rev. 18:4).

Third, you are confusing church membership with salvation and/or the baptism in the Spirit with salvation as the baptism in the Spirit did not precede the day of Pentecost, thus leaving all saints from Genesis to Acts 2 without the baptism in the Spirt.

Fourth, you are not defining the meaning of ekklesia correctly as it is only found in the NT according to its well known historical meaning of a visible assembly of people as in concrete congregations spoken of throughout the NT or in the abstract institutional sense - "the church."

Please see this thread before responding -
Abstract Institutional use of ekklesia and its Biblical synonyms

 

[McCree79]

You are making a lot of assumptions many of which are simply not true. First wrong assumption is that all the saved are in the bride. The church is the bride and the church cannot preexist its own "foundation" (Eph. 2:20) which consists FIRST of apostles (1 Cor. 12;28) "set in the church." Old Testament saints are not in the Bride.

Second, not all NT saints are in the Bride as the vast majority are found in the Great Whore (Rev. 18:4).

Third, you are confusing church membership with salvation and/or the baptism in the Spirit with salvation as the baptism in the Spirit did not precede the day of Pentecost, thus leaving all saints from Genesis to Acts 2 without the baptism in the Spirt.

Fourth, you are not defining the meaning of ekklesia correctly as it is only found in the NT according to its well known historical meaning of a visible assembly of people as in concrete congregations spoken of throughout the NT or in the abstract institutional sense - "the church."

Please see this thread before responding -
Abstract Institutional use of ekklesia and its Biblical synonyms

Babylon is a "wordly" institution. It is not a never ending state of dwelling. Yes, believers were found in historic Babylon, Rome ( revelations babylon) and they will be found in the last babylon. That doesnt mean they are not the bride of Christ. Not one verse in the bible separates the Christian into the bride and the people living down the street. The people of the "nations" are redeemed and allowed into new Jerusalem. These are the Christians of chapter 5:9-10. You are trying to sepreate believers into no exisitant classes.

Are you saying OT saints will not be part of New Jerusalem? --- ignore this. Is see clearly you stated such.

My makeing that claim you are removing the OT saints from the presence of God

Rev 21: 12 gates(Tribes) and 12 foundations (apostles). Indicate the fullness of the bride

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[TCassidy]

That doesnt mean they are not the bride of Christ.

So, those saved people who are part of the Great Whore and are committing fornication with her are "faithful" as a bride is faithful?

 

[McCree79]

So, those saved people who are part of the Great Whore and are committing fornication with her are "faithful" as a bride is faithful?

Are all those inside Babylon commiting the fornication? God calls them out to avoid the judgement that is coming to that institution. You live in the U.S.A which is the only country today that could come close to being a modern babylon. Are all commiting spirtual adultery?

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[McCree79]

So, those saved people who are part of the Great Whore and are committing fornication with her are "faithful" as a bride is faithful?

Only the "dwellers of the earth" are drunk on her adultery. Those are the same as those who have the mark of the beast. They do not have the seal of God on them.

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[JonShaff]

Rev. 21:24

I know what verse you referenced. Where in it does it talk about people living outside of new Jerusalem in that verse?

 

[McCree79]

I know what verse you referenced. Where in it does it talk about people living outside of new Jerusalem in that verse?

It doesn't

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[TCassidy]

I know what verse you referenced. Where in it does it talk about people living outside of new Jerusalem in that verse?

The nations will walk in its light. The kings of the earth bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.

 

[JonShaff]

The nations will walk in its light. The kings of the earth bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.

Please excuse my ignorance, still not seeing it

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

I thought these are the inhabitants?

 

[TCassidy]

If they go into the city it is obvious they were not in the city. And if the kings bring the glory and honor of the nations into the city it seems clear they were not in the city. And the kings were kings of the nations of the earth. Seems patently obvious to me.

 

[McCree79]

If they go into the city it is obvious they were not in the city. And if the kings bring the glory and honor of the nations into the city it seems clear they were not in the city. And the kings were kings of the nations of the earth. Seems patently obvious to me.

All nations, whose name is written in the book of life before the creation, will compose the New Jerusalem. Nothing in this series of verses points to people continuing to become the bride of Christ (enter in new Jerusalem) after it is consummated. They enter into fellowship with God at the consummation. To be in New Jerusalem is to be in the presence of God.


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[TCassidy]

All nations, whose name is written in the book of life before the creation, will compose the New Jerusalem. Nothing in this series of verses points to people continuing to become the bride of Christ (enter in new Jerusalem) after it is consummated. They enter into fellowship with God at the consummation. To be in New Jerusalem is to be in the presence of God.

And none of this has anything to do with what I posted.

 

[McCree79]

And none of this has anything to do with what I posted.

You have stated that some of the "saved " are partaking with with the harlot and have implied that after the parousia that nations outside of new Jerusalem (bride) will later come in. Did I miss read something? Who is leaving outside of the New Jerusalem? The lost, OT saints? People in purgatory???


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[The Biblicist]

You have stated that some of the "saved " are partaking with with the harlot and have implied that after the parousia that nations outside of new Jerusalem (bride) will later come in. Did I miss read something? Who is leaving outside of the New Jerusalem? The lost, OT saints? People in purgatory???


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Revelation 21:24 calls them "saved"

Did you even read post#24?????

 

[The Biblicist]

I know what verse you referenced. Where in it does it talk about people living outside of new Jerusalem in that verse?

Their kings have to bring THEIR glory "INTO" the city. That is unnecesary if they were already in the City. They walk "in the light of it" rather than walking INSIDE of it. The language here is quite obvious if you have no bias.

 

[McCree79]

Revelation 21:24 calls them "saved"

Did you even read post#24?????

Yeah....lost people, those with the mark of the beast will not be walking throught he gates. Nothing unclean can enter.

I read post 24. Almost everything said is incorrect

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[McCree79]

Their kings have to bring THEIR glory "INTO" the city. That is unnecesary if they were already in the City. They walk "in the light of it" rather than walking INSIDE of it. The language here is quite obvious if you have no bias.

You have misidentified the kings. These are those from 5:9-10 who were made a kingdom and reigned through the church age. This confirmed by 22:5. They are in the presence of "God forever and ever". The kings are not people dwelling outside of new Jerusalem. The glory they bring into new Jerusalem is themselves and worshippers of God. This is something the entire bride of Christ will do at God's end time presence.

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