Matthew 5:17 - 18 - a closer look

[Martin Marprelate]

Once again, there is no place in Scripture that allows us to separate the law for the purpose of keeping some and relegating the rest.

There are several texts that show that the Moral Law, specifically the Decalogue, occupies a higher place in the mind of God than the ceremonial or judicial law. The most obvious one is Deuteronomy 5:22, but there is no shortage of others (e.g. Amos 5:21-24). I have quoted them specifically to you on more than one thread before. Do you want me to trot them all out again?

Neither does the Holy Spirit guide Christians to observe what has been obsoleted, specifically the Sabbath commandment, a commandment that was never meant for Christians. It was a picture, prophetical for the earlier Jews, of the rest we now have in Christ. As Paul has written (Galatians and 1 Cor) we need not observe the day as special. In fact the Sabbath commandment is the only one of the Decalogue that was not expanded upon in the New Testament.

The Lord Jesus tells us that He is Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28 etc.). He gives us instruction as to how we should observe it (Mark 3:4 etc. cf. Isaiah 58:13-14). The Ten Commandments come as a boxed set. What precise verses are you thinking of in Galatians and 1 Corinthians?

 

[asterisktom]

I think you'll find that every time the term 'the law and the prophets' is used in the NT, it refers to the Bible.

Not quite. The NT makes a distinction between itself and the OT. To give just one example, Peter tells us that the prophets spoke of things they did not understand. The NT sheds light on their prophecies. Thus the term is not synonymous with the entire Bible.

 

[asterisktom]

There are several texts that show that the Moral Law, specifically the Decalogue, occupies a higher place in the mind of God than the ceremonial or judicial law.

You miss the point. No one is arguing that all the commandments are equal. Please read my OP again. And the follow up.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Not quite. The NT makes a distinction between itself and the OT. To give just one example, Peter tells us that the prophets spoke of things they did not understand. The NT sheds light on their prophecies. Thus the term is not synonymous with the entire Bible.

Matthew 5:17; Matthew 7:12; Matthew 22:40; Luke 16:16; John 1:45; Acts 13:15; Romans 3:21. I may possibly have missed one, but I think that's every time the words 'The law and the prophets' is used in the NT, and all of them refer to the Bible as it was at that time, i.e. the Old Testament. The only possible doubtful one is Luke 16:16, but even that, I think, refers to the O.T.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You miss the point. No one is arguing that all the commandments are equal. Please read my OP again. And the follow up.

Please read my post again. You wrote:

Once again, there is no place in Scripture that allows us to separate the law for the purpose of keeping some and relegating the rest

I am saying that there are many.

 

[asterisktom]

Matthew 5:17; Matthew 7:12; Matthew 22:40; Luke 16:16; John 1:45; Acts 13:15; Romans 3:21. I may possibly have missed one, but I think that's every time the words 'The law and the prophets' is used in the NT, and all of them refer to the Bible as it was at that time, i.e. the Old Testament. The only possible doubtful one is Luke 16:16, but even that, I think, refers to the O.T.

I agree with this qualification. Yes, the Law and the prophets = the OT. I never said otherwise.

 

[asterisktom]

I am on the phone right now. Too much to type. I will answer other posts later, probably tomorrow.

 

[asterisktom]

Is it true that both untils need to be fulfilled? Take a parallel sentence: "Until 2020 this van is under warranty until you sell the vehicle." One until being fulfilled ends the whole thing. I sell the car, or 2020 hits, no warranty.

Same here. "all was fulfilled" here:
Joh 19:28-30 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. (29) Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. (30) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Therefore, the jots and tittles of the law have passed, it's been fulfilled. That doesn't mean it has no value to us, but as Christians we will not be judged by it.

I appreciate that you actually tackled the main point I was making. I wanted to answer this earlier but Internet has been very spotty here in Peru.

1.I don't think you have a true parallel. Your example is an either/or.The passage in Matthew is a both/and. However I think we are both in agreement.

2.It is not only that the jots and tittles have passed; the "Thou shalt" and "shalt not's" have as well. However, lest someone misquote me, nine of these have been further elucidated in the NT - shown to be impossible to fully obey, pointing to the need for having the Law of Liberty written on our hearts.

Only the Sabbath commandment was deprecated, seeing that was a prophetical commandment for the Jews only, pointing to their Messiah as their rest.

But the ultimate point of bringing this thread up is that since the Law has passed away that means that Heaven and Earth has passed away. Textually, you cannot escape that conclusion. The reason why it seems so ridiculous to say this ("Why, just look out the window!") is that we overlook the Old Testament terminology that is necessary to understand many crucial NT texts. In this case, as I have already written elsewhere in this thread, Isaiah 51:15 - 16

"But I am the LORD thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The LORD of hosts is his name. And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundation of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people."

Quoting my earlier post:

What kind of planting is going on here?
What tense is used? (He wasn't referring to the Genesis event)
Who is God addressing? (Two answers are needed here)

This is not a "heaven and earth" you can see from your window. Neither did its passing away match the imaginative illustrations and descriptions of literalists futurists.

 

[Darrell C]

No, I don't. God can, and does, circumcise and write the law upon the heart LONG before the faith that cometh by hearing occurs.

No man can do the will of God but that it be given to them, and in this Age God reveals His will through the Comforter.

There is a different Ministry in this Age:


Hebrews 8:7-12
King James Version (KJV)

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


God has been writing His Law on the hearts of men in past Ages...


Romans 2:13-15
King James Version (KJV)

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


In view is the Will of God, the works being done are the will of God being done. That is why God gave the written Law.

But the establishing of the New Covenant and the salvation of the individual is accomplished solely by Sovereign God:


Ezekiel 36:24-27
King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Men could be justified in Old Testament Economies through obedience to the Law, but, in this Age God is Himself ministering directly to the hearts of individuals through the Ministry of the Comforter, so justification is now through Christ, rather than simply obedience to the Will of God.

And to illustrate the difference, whereas a man in past Ages could be justified through keeping the Law, the Jew today who does so (to the extent they can according to their faith in the Hebrew Scriptures) is in no way justified, because he is rejecting Christ.


Romans 3:20-26
King James Version (KJV)

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


All throughout the New Testament we see a distinction between then and now.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

If you look again at the Matthew quote you should see that Christ groups the Law and the Prophets together.

More precisely, their period of termination is at the same time.

Correct: in the Eternal State.

To imagine prophecy and prophets continuing without the foundational Law as their message is contrary to Scriptural teaching.

You are failing to do that which Christ did, which is to distinguish between the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms, which as has been mentioned before...

...is a reference to the Scripture, not to the regulations.

And the primary point you are missing in the Word of the Lord is that nothing in Scripture will pass away until all be fulfilled.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Spoken like a true literalist.

Why thank ya!

Have you never considered how the Bible uses this term, "Heaven and earth"? What about Isaiah 51: 15 - 16?

"But I am the LORD thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The LORD of hosts is his name. And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundation of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people."

Have you considered v.13?


Isaiah 51:13
King James Version (KJV)

13 And forgettest the Lord thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor?

What kind of planting is going on here?

Not relevant to the passages in view:


Revelation 20:11
King James Version (KJV)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


Revelation 21
King James Version (KJV)

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

What tense is used? (He wasn't referring to the Genesis event)

We would see that in v.13.

Who is God addressing? (Two answers are needed here)

3, Actually, Israel, you, and me.

his is not a "heaven and earth" you can see from your window.

No, but the relevant New heavens and earth will be seen (and it is just my hope I will get an abode with a view).

And that has not taken place yet.

Neither did its passing away match the imaginative illustrations and descriptions of literalists futurists.

It doesn't take much imagination to understand that Prophecy is consistent, and if we do not nullify, or spiritualize the texts to death, we can see a very easy timeline of events given in Prophecy:

The Rapture, the Tribulation, the Return of Christ, the Sheep and Goat Judgment, the Millennial Kingdom, the Great White Throne Judgment, the passing away of this literal universe, and the New heavens and Earth, the Eternal State.

Once again, there is no place in Scripture that allows us to separate the law for the purpose of keeping some and relegating the rest.

Likewise, there is no place in Scripture that allows us to separate the prophecies for the purpose of keeping some and relegating the rest.

Once again, there is no place in Scripture that allows us to separate the law for the purpose of keeping some and relegating the rest.

Neither does the Holy Spirit guide Christians to observe what has been obsoleted, specifically the Sabbath commandment, a commandment that was never meant for Christians. It was a picture, prophetical for the earlier Jews, of the rest we now have in Christ. As Paul has written (Galatians and 1 Cor) we need not observe the day as special. In fact the Sabbath commandment is the only one of the Decalogue that was not expanded upon in the New Testament.

Again, you are imposing into Christ's statement a meaning of the regulations of the Law. That is not what He is saying. He is speaking about the Scriptures and the principles they were given to teach.

The question is, why is it that you feel prophecies can pass away in contradiction to Christ's teaching?

Prophecy will be relevant until the Eternal State, when in fact, as Christ teaches...


Matthew 5:17-18 King James Version (KJV)

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


...heaven and earth shall pass away.


God bless.

 

[Deacon]

I'm not sure I'm following this. I have the feeling you're interpreting this through a theological lens that I'm not very familiar with.

So Tom, are you saying that when Jesus says, “Don’t think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets” (Matthew 5:17a), he actually did come to abolish them?

Rob

 

[asterisktom]

I'm not sure I'm following this. I have the feeling you're interpreting this through a theological lens that I'm not very familiar with.

So Tom, are you saying that when Jesus says, “Don’t think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets” (Matthew 5:17a), he actually did come to abolish them?

Rob

Rob, I am interpreting it through the Old Testament lens - just as we are supposed to. That is why I brought up the pertinent Isaiah 51 passage.

Your second paragraph is a different matter. Why widen the discussion?

One of the biggest blind spots in Christianity today is reading the New Testament without keeping the necessary OT foundational cross references in mind.

 

[asterisktom]

Revelation 20:11
King James Version (KJV)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


Revelation 21
King James Version (KJV)

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

It is too hard for me to answer these separate points in one post (The quotes don't show up, and I guess I am not savvy enough to work it right) so I will just answer this one for now:

What you write on;y proves the event. Which I don't deny. This change happened at the parousia, AD 70. You keep looking at this apocalyptic text though literalistic lenses. Please see what I wrote to Deacon.

 

[asterisktom]

3, Actually, Israel, you, and me.

No. Read the passage more carefully.

 

[asterisktom]

The question is, why is it that you feel prophecies can pass away in contradiction to Christ's teaching?

Prophecy will be relevant until the Eternal State, when in fact, as Christ teaches...

Is there prophecy today? No. Are there prophets - valid God-sent prophets today? No. They passed away - right along with the Law. Remember, according to the text of the OP, the Law is one unit.Thou shalt not kill down to the unclean regulations, every jot and tittle. In the New Covenant we have the indwelling Spirit teaching us not only not to kill but convicting us not to hate.

The prophecy written in our Bibles is certainly relevant for us today. I never said otherwise. But you are shifting the focus of discussion.

Why do you insist on a futurist scenario in contradiction to Christ's teaching in Matthew 5:17 - 18?

 

[Deacon]

Rob, I am interpreting it through the Old Testament lens - just as we are supposed to. That is why I brought up the pertinent Isaiah 51 passage.

Your second paragraph is a different matter. Why widen the discussion?

One of the biggest blind spots in Christianity today is reading the New Testament without keeping the necessary OT foundational cross references in mind.

Your reference of support in Isaiah 51 particularly weak and unconvincing. The passage references Eden and the garden; verse 16 draws up images of creation in Genesis 1:6-10.
Don't use this passage to convince anyone to abandon a literal reading!

Rather than discontinuity with the Law, I think that Matthew is communicating a continuity with the Law, it will not pass away.
Jesus is the Laws fulfillment, not its end.
He follows the passage with six antithesis (Matthew 5:21-48), the Law in the kingdom of heaven becomes internalized, a heart issue rather that one of stone.

Rob

 

[kyredneck]

the Law, it will not pass away.
Jesus is the Laws fulfillment, not its end.

...that don't jibe:

14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2

...He indeed WAS the end of the law.

 

[asterisktom]

Your reference of support in Isaiah 51 particularly weak and unconvincing. The passage references Eden and the garden; verse 16 draws up images of creation in Genesis 1:6-10.
Don't use this passage to convince anyone to abandon a literal reading!

Take a look at the verse and tell me again it is about creation only:

"And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people."

Consider please:

1, God is speaking to Someone about what He has done for Him (or them). (I believe this someone is Christ, though other commentaries allow Isaiah or Israel as possibilities)

2. The planting and the laying of foundation and the speaking to Zion follow as a result of number 1.

3. Notice the phrase "that I may". This is not looking back to Genesis 1.

 

[Darrell C]

It is too hard for me to answer these separate points in one post (The quotes don't show up, and I guess I am not savvy enough to work it right) so I will just answer this one for now:

All you need to do is highlight what you want to quote and you will see quote/reply pop up. Quote everything in the existing post you are dealing with, then hit the arrow to go to the original post and then quote the statements the responses were too, then go to the bottom of the page and hit Insert Quotes, then copy and paste the statements into the responses you quoted from the existing quote.

You'll want to make sure your code is arranged thus...

{QUOTE="asterisktom, post: 2412558, member: 8081"}
{QUOTE="asterisktom, post: 2412558, member: 8081"} What you write on;y proves the event. Which I don't deny. This change happened at the parousia, AD 70. You keep looking at this apocalyptic text though literalistic lenses. Please see what I wrote to Deacon.{/QUOTE}
It is too hard for me to answer these separate points in one post (The quotes don't show up, and I guess I am not savvy enough to work it right) so I will just answer this one for now:
{/QUOTE}

I've changed the code to deactivate it (using brackets) to show you how you want the code arranged. Put the date/time code (the first two codes with your name in it) back to back, with the end-quotes after your statement then after your antagonists statement.

That's one of the things I like about the format here, it makes it easy to quote.

What you write on;y proves the event. Which I don't deny. This change happened at the parousia, AD 70. You keep looking at this apocalyptic text though literalistic lenses. Please see what I wrote to Deacon.

But I don't see how you can take a teaching that shows the universe passing out of existence and make it symbolic, lol.

If this has happened, please send me a mapquest for New Jerusalem.




God bless.