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Matthew 5:44 & Luke 6:27
- Thread starter ktn4eg
- Start date
There is a difference in conduct with personal enemies who mis treat you....and the Government who is there for the punishment of evildoers;
In all sincerity, I would think that a Christian that is retired from the military could tell us "how a Christian in military combat can obey these verses".
How did you handle it?
I will look at the prior posts later & exersize my right to elaborate or not....lol
BTW, Kentuckred..... you need to clear out your PM box .... Its full!:wavey:
Please allow a couple of prefatory remarks before I answer your question. Thankfully, as an enlisted person in the USAF & ANG whose military specialties were limited to aircraft maintenance, I was never directly involved in military combat. Moreover, when I enlisted in the USAF (21Sep1964), I wasn't saved so obeying the Bible wasn't really an issue with me then.
After I received Christ as my Savior (April, 1966) I struggled with these verses because my "religious" background prior to that was that of growing up in a historical "peace" church--a General Conference Mennonite church.
As I progressed in my Christian life, my views on these verses basically came to resemble those that Iconoclast presented--that they were dealing with interpersonal relationships rather than with the responsibilities of a member of the military of a duly constituted national or state goverment.
Hopefully this answers your question. The reason why I started this thread is to read how others might view these verses.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Romans 13
Submission to Governing Authorities
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
I know this has already been placed by Iconoclast :thumbsup:,it is a good scripture in many translations
Hebrews 13:
17Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.
1 Peter 2:
13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. 16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves. 17 Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.
Submission to Governing Authorities
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
I know this has already been placed by Iconoclast :thumbsup:,it is a good scripture in many translations
Hebrews 13:
17Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.
1 Peter 2:
13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. 16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves. 17 Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.
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A person and a nation has a right to defend itself.
Mk 14:48 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Are ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and with staves to take me?
The government has the responsibility of protecting it's people. If a nation attacks us, we have to defend ourselves. It is likewise true that civil govenment has the responsibility to protect honest citizens from criminals.
That said, there are just wars and unjust wars. We do not have the right to attack nations unless they are a direct threat.
Edit- I want to amend that last statement. I do think it acceptable to defend a defenseless people. If we see a nation attacking a smaller, less powerful nation who is defenseless, or killing certain groups within it's own country, I do think it acceptable to help these defenseless people.
Mk 14:48 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Are ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and with staves to take me?
The government has the responsibility of protecting it's people. If a nation attacks us, we have to defend ourselves. It is likewise true that civil govenment has the responsibility to protect honest citizens from criminals.
That said, there are just wars and unjust wars. We do not have the right to attack nations unless they are a direct threat.
Edit- I want to amend that last statement. I do think it acceptable to defend a defenseless people. If we see a nation attacking a smaller, less powerful nation who is defenseless, or killing certain groups within it's own country, I do think it acceptable to help these defenseless people.
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However one does think about it after you shoot someone. If you dont, there is something wrong with you. Its difficult sometimes to reconcile. Is that what your really referring to?
psalms109:31
Active Member
Matthew 8:
9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
The day that comes that we see no authority above our selves is a day I would not want to be in.
9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
The day that comes that we see no authority above our selves is a day I would not want to be in.
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Well, when I was a teenager I used to hunt a lot. One day my best friend shot a wild pig but did not kill it. We chased after that pig though the woods with much undergrowth and vines.
Well, I thought I had my safety on, but a vine snagged my shotgun at the trigger and it went off. My friend was only about 10 feet ahead of me and it blew a big circular hole in the ground right between us. I can still see the smoke coming up from that hole. Forturnately, I did know enough to have the shotgun either aiming down or straight up, but I was really shook up, even more than my friend.
It bothered me so much that I almost killed my best friend that a week later I traded my shotgun to a neighbor for a surfboard, and I have never owned a gun since.
So yes, I can understand how it would be a terrible thing to shoot another person, but sometimes it is necessary. If someone were to try to hurt my family, I would shoot them. I'm sure I would feel terrible about it, but I would do it. And sometimes nations have to protect themselves from other nations that would attack them and kill innocent people.
OK then well brother if its not a question of trauma which is plausible to most combat vets, Id perfer not to discuss it but Bill (something or other will discuss with you if he catches the post -- Nam vet).
Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
Even when you have to kill someone in the service of your country, it does exact a price.
I think Jesus was talking about interpersonal relationships. Jesus never told the soldiers to quit being soldiers in Luke 3:14. He told them to not take money from people but to be content with their wages.
I think Jesus was talking about interpersonal relationships. Jesus never told the soldiers to quit being soldiers in Luke 3:14. He told them to not take money from people but to be content with their wages.
Thank you. Good point.
Agreed.
(NOTE: If I'm not mistaken, it was John the Baptist [not Jesus] who gave this advice to the soldiers.)
I remember very well as a young child being abruptedly awakened many times in the middle of the night from the shouts of my father during his nightmares of WW2 in the Pacific. And the man has never stepped foot in a VA hospital.
Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
You are correct. I was wrong.
As an active duty military person, here's my take:
Matthew 5:44 - remember context. This whole passage is directed at people in general. The last part of the sentence ("them which despitefully use you, and persecute you") doesn't indicate a combat situation, but our everyday dealings with others.
Luke 6:27 - same thing (see verse 28).
psalms109:31
Active Member
Matthew 5:
Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[Lev. 19:18] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Luke 10:
30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’
36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”
37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”
Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
The meaning of the Good Samaritan for Calvin was, instead, that "compassion, which an enemy showed to a Jew, demonstrates that the guidance and teaching of nature are sufficient to show that man was created for the sake of man. Hence it is inferred that there is a mutual obligation between all men." In other writings, Calvin pointed out that people are not born merely for themselves, but rather "mankind is knit together with a holy knot ... we must not live for ourselves, but for our neighbors.
2 Corinthians 5:16
So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.
Hebrews 12:14
Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
1 Timothy 2
Instructions on Worship
1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.
Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[Lev. 19:18] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Luke 10:
30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’
36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”
37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”
Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
The meaning of the Good Samaritan for Calvin was, instead, that "compassion, which an enemy showed to a Jew, demonstrates that the guidance and teaching of nature are sufficient to show that man was created for the sake of man. Hence it is inferred that there is a mutual obligation between all men." In other writings, Calvin pointed out that people are not born merely for themselves, but rather "mankind is knit together with a holy knot ... we must not live for ourselves, but for our neighbors.
2 Corinthians 5:16
So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.
Hebrews 12:14
Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
1 Timothy 2
Instructions on Worship
1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.
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