Matthew 6:15 and Forgiveness

[JonC]

In Matthew 6:14-15 Jesus teaches that if we do not forgive men their sins against us God will not forgive our sins against Him.

At first I had a difficult time reconciling this truth (I say “truth” because it stands independent of whether or not I understand or reconcile it because it is the word of God). But upon reflection and study I have come to, I think, a better understanding.

In Matthew 18 Jesus teaches using a parable. A king wanted to settle his accounts. A servant begged for forgiveness and the master forgave the servant’s debt. But upon returning home the servant demanded a lesser debt owed to him be settled in full, refusing to forgive the man. When the king heard of this he confronted the servant, calling him wicked. In his anger the master handed this wicked servant over to be tortured until the servant should pay back all that he had owed.

The king gave forgiveness, but in the end forgiveness was withheld because the servant refused to forgive others. In other words, the debt was forgiven but this forgiveness was dependent on the character (or perhaps change in character) of the man. He proved to be wicked and unaffected by the grace the king extended to him. And he was, ultimately, without forgiveness and condemned.

Our debts are settled “on that day” or at Judgment, I think. Our salvation now looks to our salvation “on that day”. Perhaps there are people who have had an experience they equate to salvation but “on that day” may not actually be saved from Judgment. Maybe these are those who, I believe, Jesus spoke of in Matthew 7.

How do you reconcile the truth that those who do not forgive other people will not be forgiven by God?

 

[tyndale1946]

Well Jon I will tell you my wife's story, so to speak, I married a woman who was a divorcee... I was not!... I lost my previous wife to death after 30 years of marriage and found her... They had a biblical marriage but long in their marriage he got the roving eye, while in the church but she stayed because of the children... But once the children were grown she filed for divorce and he agreed to it but then turned her own children against her... She was still going to church as she had been all her life but had been single 10 years, he stopped going to church along time ago but his name was still on the church books, when I married her.

She brought the matter to the church during time of his infidelity and the church did nothing... She said he never abused her physically but the emotional scars run deep... Now I hear what you are saying and I know what the Bible says and I'm not accusing or excusing anything but when a hurt that goes on for 26 years, it is hard to forgive... I've never walked in her shoes, so I cannot know her heart like God does and he has been working on her little by little... One more thing to add, though she is now my wife, at family get together's guess who shows up?... Her X with his wife, who he cheated on her, to get... Forgiveness to me is a process and one of the hardest things in my life was not forgiving others, for me that is the easy part, for me it was forgiving myself, for straying so far from God at times... That's a biggie!... How do I feel about her X?... Well he threw her to the curb and still doesn't go to church or his wife but I got her and as they say one man trash is another mans treasure... She is quite the Christian Lady and has a heart for others... Brother Glen

Proverbs 31:10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.

31:11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.

31:12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.

 

[JonC]

Well Jon I will tell you my wife's story, so to speak, I married a woman who was a divorcee... I was not!... I lost my previous wife to death after 30 years of marriage and found her... They had a biblical marriage but long in their marriage he got the roving eye, while in the church but she stayed because of the children... But once the children were grown she filed for divorce and he agreed to it but then turned her own children against her... She was still going to church as she had been all her life but had been single 10 years, he stopped going to church along time ago but his name was still on the church books, when I married her.

She brought the matter to the church during time of his infidelity and the church did nothing... She said he never abused her physically but the emotional scars run deep... Now I hear what you are saying and I know what the Bible says and I'm not accusing or excusing anything but when a hurt that goes on for 26 years, it is hard to forgive... I've never walked in her shoes, so I cannot know her heart like God does and he has been working on her little by little... One more thing to add, though she is now my wife, at family get together's guess who shows up?... Her X with his wife, who he cheated on her, to get... Forgiveness to me is a process and one of the hardest things in my life was not forgiving others, for me that is the easy part, for me it was forgiving myself, for straying so far from God at times... That's a biggie!... How do I feel about her X?... Well he threw her to the curb and still doesn't go to church or his wife but I got her and as they say one man trash is another mans treasure... She is quite the Christian Lady and has a heart for others... Brother Glen

Proverbs 31:10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.

31:11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.

31:12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.

I agree that forgiveness is hard. I wrestled with that first passage myself. But I think we do have to forgive.

Restoration is another matter. I think forgiveness is not holding one accountable to you in some way. We can forgive a debt without restoration.

When we refuse to forgive we are holding the other person accountable to us as a "debtor". At a very basic level we are giving control of us to them because unlike God we are not truly in a position to effect justice. We cannot "collect" what we feel is owed.

So I understand it is difficult, but I have to believe forgiveness is necessary. I do not know another way to interpret those verses.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I agree that forgiveness is hard. I wrestled with that first passage myself. But I think we do have to forgive.

Restoration is another matter. I think forgiveness is not holding one accountable to you in some way. We can forgive a debt without restoration.

When we refuse to forgive we are holding the other person accountable to us as a "debtor". At a very basic level we are giving control of us to them because unlike God we are not truly in a position to effect justice. We cannot "collect" what we feel is owed.

So I understand it is difficult, but I have to believe forgiveness is necessary. I do not know another way to interpret those verses.

So God does not forgive our unforgiveness.

 

[JonC]

So God does not forgive our unforgiveness.

That is my question.

Multiple passages state that if we do not forgive others when they sin against us God will not forgive us for sinning against Him.

What do we do with those passages?

 

[Alan Gross]

So God does not forgive our unforgiveness.

Read, "alleviation from the pestilences and temptations and trials of life", for will not 'forgive'.

"Lead us not into temptation" = deliver us from the evil in the World and the pestilences and temptations and trials of life that they may be allowed to produce.

Judge not that you be not judged.

When the wicked servant did not forgive as he had been forgiven, he was put into prison, until he should pay all.

When we do not forgive in our hearts and having a forgiving Spirit, we are susceptible to the trials of Satan.

"Mean girl" Christianity is mad at everyone, for everything and not taking a position of "love your enemies".

God Has Taken on Himself the Job of VENGENCE.

Who are we to be hateful and unforgiving and vengeful against other humans, when, if, we are a forgiven child of God?

That is not good optics and God Knows about all of it and doesn't let it go.

Forgive us as we forgive those...

A child of God's Position is before God and Allowing God to Deal with lost sinners and our enemies and everyone else.

We are to pray for them.

Have we 'forgiven them' if we can not Pray for them? No.

Is it all easy? Hard? No, impossible.

Forgiveness is the Activity of God in our soul for others.

Forgive everyone in your mind's eye that God brings to your mind and LET THEM GO, TURN THEM OVER TO GOD, and KEEP DOING IT.

Remind Satan YOU FORGAVE and GOD TOOK IT and KEEP DOING IT 70 TIMES 7.

Then, you can Pray, Be in the Spirit, Prayed Up, and a Spiritual Christian that can BE USED BY GOD.

While having unforgiveness and hatred in your heart can leave a student of the Word of God thinking and believing John Calvin wrote the Doctrine in The Bible and Invented God-Honoring Christianity.

See that example?

The mind is left carnal to play into the hands of Satan, in a way that is childish.

"Lead us NOT into THAT temptation"

"Deliver us from EVIL"

The issue of this type of 'forgiveness', when you say, "God does not forgive our unforgiveness" has nothing to do with God Forgiving us, IN SALVATION.

"God does not forgive our unforgiveness" is true, having to do with TEMPORAL SITUATIONS and when a child of God does not forgive others, the Teaching is that God Will Not Give them "alleviation from the pestilences and temptations and trials of life".

God Leaves the pressure on them.

By contrast, David.

His example of PRAISING and WORSHIPPING GOD in the worst of trials, IS BY A FORGIVING, SPIRIT-FILLED HEART, ABLE TO BE USED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

"Playing God" is NOT HOW GOD'S CHILDREN WORK THE RIGHTEOUSNESS of God and
NOT HOW WE GET HEALED, DELIVERED, AND RELEASED FROM PRISON, as Paul and Silas, and Joseph, etc., etc.

Try it.

Forgive.

I have see patients in dire circumstances released from the hospital within days of being enlightened about their responsibility to OWN THEIR UNFORGIVENESS.

One was an underaged girl who I believe had been molested and was eat up with herbies like invections, in and out.

We don't know what she knew about molestation or not, but we know HER LIGHTS CAME ON when talking to her about forgiving anyone who has harmed her AND HER STRAENTH and HEALTH RETURNED Right Away.

The Evil SPIRITS WERE RUN OFF by GOD, ACCORDING TO ME.


"I am The God of All flesh, is anything too hard forMe?"

No. We can provide Him with the Holy Spirit and Scriptural 'environment' to WORK, though, can't we?


The Wrath of man works not the Righteousness of God.

QUESTION: Who would like to be "a man after God's Own Heart"?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Read, "alleviation from the pestilences and temptations and trials of life", for will not 'forgive'.

"Lead us not into temptation" = deliver us from the evil in the World and the pestilences and temptations and trials of life that they may be allowed to produce.

Judge not that you be not judged.

When the wicked servant did not forgive as he had been forgiven, he was put into prison, until he should pay all.

When we do not forgive in our hearts and having a forgiving Spirit, we are susceptible to the trials of Satan.

"Mean girl" Christianity is mad at everyone, for everything and not taking a position of "love your enemies".

God Has Taken on Himself the Job of VENGENCE.

Who are we to be hateful and unforgiving and vengeful against other humans, when, if, we are a forgiven child of God?

That is not good optics and God Knows about all of it and doesn't let it go.

Forgive us as we forgive those...

A child of God's Position is before God and Allowing God to Deal with lost sinners and our enemies and everyone else.

We are to pray for them.

Have we 'forgiven them' if we can not Pray for them? No.

Is it all easy? Hard? No, impossible.

Forgiveness is the Activity of God in our soul for others.

Forgive everyone in your mind's eye that God brings to your mind and LET THEM GO, TURN THEM OVER TO GOD, and KEEP DOING IT.

Remind Satan YOU FORGAVE and GOD TOOK IT and KEEP DOING IT 70 TIMES 7.

Then, you can Pray, Be in the Spirit, Prayed Up, and a Spiritual Christian that can BE USED BY GOD.

While having unforgiveness and hatred in your heart can leave a student of the Word of God thinking and believing John Calvin wrote the Doctrine in The Bible and Invented God-Honoring Christianity.

See that example?

The mind is left carnal to play into the hands of Satan, in a way that is childish.

"Lead us NOT into THAT temptation"

"Deliver us from EVIL"

The issue of this type of 'forgiveness', when you say, "God does not forgive our unforgiveness" has nothing to do with God Forgiving us, IN SALVATION.

"God does not forgive our unforgiveness" is true, having to do with TEMPORAL SITUATIONS and when a child of God does not forgive others, the Teaching is that God Will Not Give them "alleviation from the pestilences and temptations and trials of life".

God Leaves the pressure on them.

By contrast, David.

His example of PRAISING and WORSHIPPING GOD in the worst of trials, IS BY A FORGIVING, SPIRIT-FILLED HEART, ABLE TO BE USED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

"Playing God" is NOT HOW GOD'S CHILDREN WORK THE RIGHTEOUSNESS of God and
NOT HOW WE GET HEALED, DELIVERED, AND RELEASED FROM PRISON, as Paul and Silas, and Joseph, etc., etc.

Try it.

Forgive.

I have see patients in dire circumstances released from the hospital within days of being enlightened about their responsibility to OWN THEIR UNFORGIVENESS.

One was an underaged girl who I believe had been molested and was eat up with herbies like invections, in and out.

We don't know what she knew about molestation or not, but we know HER LIGHTS CAME ON when talking to her about forgiving anyone who has harmed her AND HER STRAENTH and HEALTH RETURNED Right Away.

The Evil SPIRITS WERE RUN OFF by GOD, ACCORDING TO ME.


"I am The God of All flesh, is anything too hard forMe?"

No. We can provide Him with the Holy Spirit and Scriptural 'environment' to WORK, though, can't we?


The Wrath of man works not the Righteousness of God.

QUESTION: Who would like to be "a man after God's Own Heart"?

God expects flawed people to do what he is unwilling to do. Isn’t that hypocritical?

 

[Alan Gross]

God expects flawed people to do what he is unwilling to do. Isn’t that hypocritical?

God rains on the Just and the unjust.

All Human Beings deserve to go to Hell, Forever.

Placing All Human Beings in Hell would be consistent with God's Love because God Does Not Love sin.

God Hates sin.

God Willed to Choose some He Would Save, through His Eternal Plan of Salvation.

Those who have been Saved DO NOT KNOW who God Intends to Save.

To have murdered Saul of Tarsus WAS NOT GOD'S DIRECTION to His people that were being slaughtered by him.

They were to pray and forgive, in their Spirit, as if that Human Being was Created only to be loved.

God Knows what He is Doing and is Eternally Offended by one accusing Him of Hypocracy, enough that that sin, alone, is worthy of Unending Suffering in The Lake of Fire, Forever.

God Has Never been Obligated to Love, or Forgive, any Human sinner.

God Hates sin.

We are instructed to Love the sinner as if they do not know better, and they do not.

Forgive them, they know not what they do.

May God Forgive you, you do not know what you are saying.

 

[Van]

Like so many other difficulties, the concept that something is proof of salvation, rather than provides salvation resolves the difficulty. If we are humble and have a contrite heart, we would not hold against others what we have asked God to forgive. I have no difficulty forgiving the wrong treatment I think others have given me, because they pale in comparison with my sins.
Besides the Lord's prayer is crystal.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

God rains on the Just and the unjust.

All Human Beings deserve to go to Hell, Forever.

Placing All Human Beings in Hell would be consistent with God's Love because God Does Not Love sin.

God Hates sin.

God Willed to Choose some He Would Save, through His Eternal Plan of Salvation.

Those who have been Saved DO NOT KNOW who God Intends to Save.

To have murdered Saul of Tarsus WAS NOT GOD'S DIRECTION to His people that were being slaughtered by him.

They were to pray and forgive, in their Spirit, as if that Human Being was Created only to be loved.

God Knows what He is Doing and is Eternally Offended by one accusing Him of Hypocracy, enough that that sin, alone, is worthy of Unending Suffering in The Lake of Fire, Forever.

God Has Never been Obligated to Love, or Forgive, any Human sinner.

God Hates sin.

We are instructed to Love the sinner as if they do not know better, and they do not.

Forgive them, they know not what they do.

May God Forgive you, you do not know what you are saying.

Wrong again, btw I’m already a born again so....

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

But there is a saying that the Roman Sulla used at his grave.... it reads, “No friend ever served , and no enemy ever wronged me, whom I have not repaid in full.”

 

[Alan Gross]

Wrong again, btw I’m already a born again so....

Don't see the relevance for the comment.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Don't see the relevance for the comment.

I’m already saved so I don’t argue with God... there ain’t no point to it

 

[AustinC]

That is my question.

Multiple passages state that if we do not forgive others when they sin against us God will not forgive us for sinning against Him.

What do we do with those passages?

I guess you can build an entire theology around a couple sentences and then live your life in fear and legalism believing your actions determine you eternal destiny. Take your eyes off Jesus, keep your eyes on self and then buffet your body into submission.

 

[JonC]

I guess you can build an entire theology around a couple sentences and then live your life in fear and legalism believing your actions determine you eternal destiny. Take your eyes off Jesus, keep your eyes on self and then buffet your body into submission.

I agree we kerp our eyes on Jesus, and some do try to build a theology over o e verse or proverb.

But this topic is a little different (there are multiple passages saying the same thing). Jesus said this many times. Peter says something along the same lines in a paragraph about fearing God. Paul says this in several Epistles.

You do point out what I am asking about how all of these passages fit out theologies.

(I am not claiming to have the answers but am asking how you incorporate these types of passages).