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Matthias, the apostle
- Thread starter rlvaughn
- Start date
Don't know who "you" is, but I see a similarity between the twelve apostles and the twelve tribes of Israel.
It could be asked concerning the tribes: Were there 12, 13, or 14 tribes of Israel?
It could be asked concerning the apostles: Were there 12, 13, or 14 apostles?
The question concerning the tribes revolves around Joseph and his two sons (the half-tribes) Manasseh and Ephraim. Which one of these is counted in the twelve?
The question concerning the apostles revolves around Judas, Matthias, and Paul. Which one of these is counted in the twelve?
Dan is called a serpent and an adder in his father's prophecy:
Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. Gen 49:17
Christ refers to Judas as a devil:
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. Jn 6:70,71
Dan is not included in the tally of the tribes given in Rev 7 . Manasseh is included in the count along with Joseph. Ephraim is almost of a certain counted as one with Joseph.
Concerning Matthias's qualifications:
Of the men therefore that have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John, unto the day that he was received up from us, of these must one become a witness with us of his resurrection. Acts 1:21,22
and ye also bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning. Jn 15:27
This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses. Acts 2:32
and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:15
And with great power gave the apostles their witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Acts 4:33
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree....And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Acts 5:30,32
And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree. Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest, not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10:39-42
But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. Acts 13:30,31
or we did not follow cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2 Pet 1:16
But then there's Paul, who was definitely a 'witness of the resurrected Christ':
For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures; and that he appeared to Cephas; then to the twelve;
then he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain until now, but some are fallen asleep; then he appeared to James; then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to the child untimely born, he appeared to me also. 1 Cor 15:3-8
...but Paul wasn't company with the others from the baptism of John, AND, Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, NOT to "the people".
My question: is Paul's name or Matthias's name here?:
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Rev 21
It could be asked concerning the tribes: Were there 12, 13, or 14 tribes of Israel?
It could be asked concerning the apostles: Were there 12, 13, or 14 apostles?
The question concerning the tribes revolves around Joseph and his two sons (the half-tribes) Manasseh and Ephraim. Which one of these is counted in the twelve?
The question concerning the apostles revolves around Judas, Matthias, and Paul. Which one of these is counted in the twelve?
Dan is called a serpent and an adder in his father's prophecy:
Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. Gen 49:17
Christ refers to Judas as a devil:
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. Jn 6:70,71
Dan is not included in the tally of the tribes given in Rev 7 . Manasseh is included in the count along with Joseph. Ephraim is almost of a certain counted as one with Joseph.
Concerning Matthias's qualifications:
Of the men therefore that have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John, unto the day that he was received up from us, of these must one become a witness with us of his resurrection. Acts 1:21,22
and ye also bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning. Jn 15:27
This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses. Acts 2:32
and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:15
And with great power gave the apostles their witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Acts 4:33
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree....And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Acts 5:30,32
And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree. Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest, not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10:39-42
But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. Acts 13:30,31
or we did not follow cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2 Pet 1:16
But then there's Paul, who was definitely a 'witness of the resurrected Christ':
For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures; and that he appeared to Cephas; then to the twelve;
then he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain until now, but some are fallen asleep; then he appeared to James; then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to the child untimely born, he appeared to me also. 1 Cor 15:3-8
...but Paul wasn't company with the others from the baptism of John, AND, Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, NOT to "the people".
My question: is Paul's name or Matthias's name here?:
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Rev 21
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One might offer a resolution to the conflict by allowing that the word "apostle" is not limited to the 12, but by using the definition of "messenger, delegate, envoy, ambassador" is inclusive of all who carry the gospel.
Because the NT showing a transition from the Gospels into a presentation of the gospel to the gentiles, folks look at Paul as perhaps one of the 12. Yet, imo, he didn't consider himself at that level, but submitted himself to the Apostles and their approval. (seen in the Acts when he presented the gentile work to the Apostles)
Therefore, imo, the 12 foundations will also carry the name of Matthias and not Paul.
I find little authority in speculating that some alignment exists between the Apostles and the twelve tribes' heritage.
Simon Peter, Andrew, Philip, James, John, Nathanael, or Bartholomew were all from the regions of Galilee.
As far as I can discern most of the Apostles were from northern grouping of the ten that went into bondage first before the southern two were conquered by the Babylonians.
Also, in my opinion, is why the dialect of the Northern (Galilee area) part was recognizable to those of the South, who had ancestors who spent time in the regions of Babylon and Persia. The South had distinctions that carried over from captivity in a different area then the north had from their captivity.
Sort of like that which the U.S. faces when one hears the remarkable Southern drawl compared to that harsh phonetically challenged group of the North.
Because the NT showing a transition from the Gospels into a presentation of the gospel to the gentiles, folks look at Paul as perhaps one of the 12. Yet, imo, he didn't consider himself at that level, but submitted himself to the Apostles and their approval. (seen in the Acts when he presented the gentile work to the Apostles)
Therefore, imo, the 12 foundations will also carry the name of Matthias and not Paul.
I find little authority in speculating that some alignment exists between the Apostles and the twelve tribes' heritage.
Simon Peter, Andrew, Philip, James, John, Nathanael, or Bartholomew were all from the regions of Galilee.
As far as I can discern most of the Apostles were from northern grouping of the ten that went into bondage first before the southern two were conquered by the Babylonians.
Also, in my opinion, is why the dialect of the Northern (Galilee area) part was recognizable to those of the South, who had ancestors who spent time in the regions of Babylon and Persia. The South had distinctions that carried over from captivity in a different area then the north had from their captivity.
Sort of like that which the U.S. faces when one hears the remarkable Southern drawl compared to that harsh phonetically challenged group of the North.
Just chunking a rock in the pack to see who hollers!
One of the sad truths is that bible translation often fail to translate important words but, rather, transliterate them in order to avoid offending the people who will, presumably, buy the bible translation.
Some examples:
εκκλησια = church rather than assembly or congregation.
βαπτίζω = baptize rather than dip or immerse.
ἄγγελος = angel rather than (heavenly) messenger.
ἀπόστολος = apostle rather than (earthly) messenger.
Had αποστολοσ been translated as "messenger" this discussion would be moot. Instead of discussing "apostles" we would be discussing "the Twelve."
All 17 persons called "apostle" in the New Testament were messengers. But only 12 of them were vested with the specific office of "The Twelve."
Some examples:
εκκλησια = church rather than assembly or congregation.
βαπτίζω = baptize rather than dip or immerse.
ἄγγελος = angel rather than (heavenly) messenger.
ἀπόστολος = apostle rather than (earthly) messenger.
Had αποστολοσ been translated as "messenger" this discussion would be moot. Instead of discussing "apostles" we would be discussing "the Twelve."
All 17 persons called "apostle" in the New Testament were messengers. But only 12 of them were vested with the specific office of "The Twelve."
This is just speculation...
But We see here the group of people around John in Matt. 3...
6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Maybe Paul Did witness the Baptism of Christ as one of the Pharisees??
13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?”
But We see here the group of people around John in Matt. 3...
6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Maybe Paul Did witness the Baptism of Christ as one of the Pharisees??
13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?”
I don't doubt that Saul had some contact with John the Baptist. I think history may be silent by some evidence might still be applied.
He came from a very well to do family, had the absolute best education, was a noted Israeli scholar and trusted advisor to and in the ruling Sanhedrin. He was respected and well known throughout the world of Jewish communities as evidenced that as he would later travel as a missionary, he was allowed to openly invited to present in the various synagogs. Know doubt that before his conversion he would be keen to investigate any event that could have brought understanding to prophecies that he had most certainly and thoroughly studied.
Decades ago, I read from someone that considered that he was the rich young ruler, that this ruler left "troubled" and that "troubling" led to the "kicking against pricks" statement in Acts.
It is unfortunate that much is left to speculation, but doesn't that bring the curiosity forward to investigate even more?
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matt 19:28
Who will be sitting on those twelve thrones?
Who will be sitting on those twelve thrones?
Jesus calls them "the twelve" in many verses. For instance, Mark 6:7 He called to himself the twelve."
After the death of Judas they were called "the eleven." Such as here in Mark 16:14 "Afterward he was revealed to the eleven themselves as they sat at the table."
After the election of Matthias it says he was numbered with the eleven. Acts 1:26 They drew lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles.
When it came time to elect deacons, they are again called "the twelve."
Acts 6:2 The twelve summoned the multitude of the disciples and said, “It is not appropriate for us to forsake the word of God and serve tables.
It could not have been referring to Paul as he was not saved until chapter 9. Matthias was the replacement for Judas, not Paul.
Matthias was one of The Twelve. An Apostle.
Paul was a messenger apostle. In no way inferior to the others. Just a different ministry.
The Twelve had been told to not go to the gentiles but only unto the house of Israel (Matthew10:6).
Paul was specifically called (Acts13:47) and gifted (1 Corinthians 13:18) to preach to the gentiles.
When we see the Heavenly City it will the name of Matthias which we see on the foundation stone.
The Eleven plus Matthias. (See my post above.)
The group post-Judas, pre-Matthias, is also called the Twelve:
I Cor 15:4-5
"that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve."
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My view is that the Greek apostolos should be translated as "missionary." Examine the lives of the 12 (including Matthias, who as the OP points out was "numbered" with the 11 (so if the Bible counts him as one, why argue?). You will find that all of them (except maybe James, martyred early) went out as cross-cultural missionaries.
Now the 12 were special, as has been pointed out: 12 thrones governing Israel, 12 foundations in the New Jerusalem. Nevertheless, they were all cross cultural missionaries, as were Paul and Barnabas and others called apostles in the NT.
Now the 12 were special, as has been pointed out: 12 thrones governing Israel, 12 foundations in the New Jerusalem. Nevertheless, they were all cross cultural missionaries, as were Paul and Barnabas and others called apostles in the NT.
That makes perfect sense to me!
But Matthias was with them from the baptism of John, so he was retroactively one of the 12.
